No Decklists in format specific forums?
TappedOut forum
Posted on Dec. 1, 2013, 4:51 a.m. by EvenDryke
It really grinds my gears that you can't post decklists in the forums for Standard, Modern, Legacy, or any format for that matter.
I feel that having a forum for almost every format under the sun but not allowing people to talk about their decks that fall under these categories makes very little sense.
Having forums where you can discuss a particular format in general terms is valuable, but I don't see why there isn't room for that AND deck help in the format specific forums. It's like making a forum for musicians, but not allowing them to share or get feedback on their work in those same forums.
What do you guys think? Do you agree that allowing decklists in these forums would make people's lives easier?
I am aware. What I am saying is the deck help forum would be redundant if we were allowed to post our lists in the proper forums. The deck help forum could be preserved for decks that are not format specific.
I'll give you an example: I have a modern deck. If I want feedback on my exact list, I am forced to post it in the deck help forum where there may or may not be people who are qualified to give it. Why can I not post my list in the Modern forum where I know that there are people who can help me?
It's not a big problem, but it does have a very simple fix.
December 1, 2013 5:31 a.m.
tl;dr - A single deck help forum doesn't cut in a world where different formats exist. Especially considering we already have forums for the different formats.
December 1, 2013 5:34 a.m.
I think the current system is definitely bad. The reason for this is that you're more likely to attract modern players to the modern forum - so you're going to get people more interested in the format in that section. Therefore decks posted in the specific forum could receive more constructive criticism than those posted in the generic deck help forum. It tailors the user experience so that they only see what they're interested in.
December 1, 2013 5:47 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #6
We DO often see "I want help with this deck: [insert deckname]". In the generic deck help section you don't have an idea about the format so this often leads to comments like: "Well, it's R so you should probably have Lightning Bolt ." "Lightning Bolt is great but this is for the standard format."
December 1, 2013 9:44 a.m.
I see at as the deck help forum is for asking for specific advice on your deck, like "need SB advice for mono red (standard)". That's just me though. The format specific forums are just general talk about the format, like "What do you think is going to be in Born of the Gods?", or "What does black have to deal with artifacts?". The deck help forum seems to just be used as an extra deckcycle sometimes, but I don't know if that was it's intention? ...I could be way off though...
December 1, 2013 10:27 a.m.
I think if there are going to be any deck list in the format specific forums it should be talk about a deck that's strong in that format, for example legacy R/U delver, Bant or Death and Taxes and how current/new releases affect them and make them better or weaker in general and primers. Not help with your specific deck or build.
December 1, 2013 11:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
@EvenDryke: There's no such thing as a deck that's not format specific. All decks are built for a format (if you're counting casual as its own "format"). Additionally, this site does not currently have a means of implementing subforums. If we did away with the Deck Help forum, then every decklist would have to go to the appropriate format's main forum, which would, in turn, cause forum flooding. Two out of every three threads would be for deck help, and that would severely hinder the ability of the format-specific forums to fulfill their purpose. Those forums are meant to house discussion of the formats themselves. I enforce a no decklists rule because I don't want those forums to become watered down and useless.
@ChiefBell: If we had subforums, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, we don't. So I stick to the generic Deck Help forum in the meantime.
gufymike has summed up the basic difference between the forums. Deck Help is for exactly that - help with your deck. The format forums are for discussion about those formats.
December 1, 2013 3:44 p.m.
@Epochalyptik: I was talking about casual decks and decks that fall under non-sanctioned formats (i.e. Pauper, Horde, Communal Tower, etc). People could and would still use the deck help forum for any decks they want, but people looking for more specific help would have an easier go of it.
We don't need to implement subforums, we already have the forums. The problem is the rules. What ChiefBell and Ohthenoises said is exactly right and highlights the problem beautifully.
I understand what the format specific forums are for, I just think that there is room for that AND people seeking help with their decks who don't want to work around the rules as they have to currently.
December 1, 2013 6:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
@EvenDryke: I don't see how anyone is forced to work around the rules. The rules are that deck help posts go in the Deck Help forum. Format forums are for discussing the formats themselves.
If we clog the format forums with deck help posts, we're reducing the viability of those forums for their intended purpose. Actual format discussion threads will be harder to find because users will have to sift through a flood of deck help threads.
The "solution" creates further problems if you propose to keep the Deck Help forum around for handling other kinds of decks - now we're just splitting everything up unnecessarily, and the efficacy of every forum involved is reduced as a result.
December 1, 2013 6:36 p.m.
I would scrap deck help and just have everyone post all decks in the relevant format forum (is there a 'casual' forum?). I know that we can't do subforums which is a problem because the standard forum would get clogged if we moved to this new methodology. Maybe it would be better to split standard into a discussion forum and a deck help forum but the rest I don't think will make a massive impact but then, i dont know how popular modern is......
I just really feel like the current system is completely illogical for new users and not optimised for ease of access.
December 1, 2013 6:41 p.m.
One of things I do when I go to look at deck asking for help, is look at what the hub or format it is tagged for is. then this way I don't suggest Lightning Bolt for a standard build of mono-red. the tagging of the format in the thread name or listing in the sub forum of the format is redundant if the deck is tagged correctly. I don't even really visit the forum area, just look at the front page list of threads and read those. I rarely see what forum it's listed in.
December 1, 2013 6:45 p.m.
I include the deck type in the deck name for efficiency / clarity in all streams.
I just have to remind myself to say "I have such-and-such relevant deck on my profile page" instead of accidentally linking the deck. For anything in the discussion forums that should be enough.
December 1, 2013 6:47 p.m.
As a further question to Epochalyptik is it theoretically possible to have stickied threads? I think it would be really cool to have stickies at the top of every forum that were articles about that formats usual meta and a selection of the top decks and cards. A nice discussion piece giving pointers and tips about what to expect and what's commonly seen in those formats. That would really help all the users I think.
December 1, 2013 6:47 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
@ChiefBell: Subdividing everything without actual subforums just needlessly complicates everything. One deck forum can currently cover everything. I don't see a need to make moderating and navigating more difficult.
We also don't have a sticky system.
December 1, 2013 7:04 p.m.
Your list of forum posts that need to be moved would be that much shorter, and people who are new to the site would be that much less confused.
Navigating would be easier because we wouldn't have to guess on what format people's decks are in the deck help forum, and as ChiefBell said before we would see what we want to see instead of the current cluster f*ck that is the deck help forum. In a perfect world people would say it in the title of their thread, but unfortunately not many people do that.
When I browse the first two pages of the deck help forum, I see the following break down:
Standard Decks: 11
Modern Decks: 4
Legacy Decks: 1
EDH Decks: 6
Casual: 9
Deck formats in title of thread: 8 (which is less than half)
So based on this, which I will go ahead and say is not a rock solid figure, the standard forum is the only one that would be flooded, with about half the forum dedicated to people's standard decks (which is to be expected from the most popular format).
If you like, I would be happy to go through and do some actual math to pull a solid, representative figure of how much each format specific forum would actually be changed.
December 1, 2013 8:13 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
Numbers aside, deck help threads would, in my opinion, just further confuse the format forums. I'd prefer to keep the current organization as it is because it means users who are interested in a format can have a dedicated location to discuss the format itself, and users who are interested in getting feedback on a deck can have a dedicated location to ask for feedback. I'd prefer to keep decklists and format discussion separate for exactly that reason.
Also, on the argument that the Deck Help forum is confusing, that's entirely the users' fault. It's up to the individual posting a deck help thread to clarify exactly what he or she has and what he or she wants. Nobody is responsible for helping him or her; the Deck Help forum is meant simply to facilitate requests for help. It's the user's responsibility to post intelligently enough to encourage feedback.
December 1, 2013 8:32 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #19
Relying on people's intelligence.... on the internet.... I never thought I'd see those two thoughts on the same thread.
December 1, 2013 8:37 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
@Ohthenoises: In my defense, I didn't say I expected anything of it. It's merely the individual's responsibility.
December 1, 2013 8:42 p.m.
Alright, I'll stop arguing the point.
But before I do that, I would like to point out one last thing:
You say that the state of the deck help forum is the user's fault. Well you're not wrong, but I would counter by saying that the goal of web design is to be as user friendly, and by extension idiot friendly as possible. If the users are not doing something correctly, this means that the interface is not doing something correctly.
Frustrating as it is, if users are confused then it may be time to take another look at how things function.
December 1, 2013 8:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
We can't really help the users any more than we already have. The Deck Help forum's description says "Please be specific about what you're looking to improve!" The only way we can do more is if we hold their hands throughout the posting process. We have to draw the line somewhere. I'm not really sure what you would have us do differently.
Epochalyptik says... #2
We have a Deck Help forum...
December 1, 2013 5:06 a.m.