One thing I think should be done.
TappedOut forum
Posted on Dec. 2, 2013, 9:07 a.m. by gufymike
There are too many 'Advertise your deck' threads in the deck help forum. They aren't exactly asking for help as much as trying to push them on us to view. I don't disagree there should be a thread on this topic, but I don't think we need 2+ simultaneously going on. We do have the deck cycle and the front page and hubs that do this already, but the problem with them is the number of users and your deck gets lost in the mix rather quickly and a separate forum would be similar. We don't have sticky threads to keep one above the rest easy to find. What can be done about this? yeahgo is it possible to get your input on this? I don't have a working or workable solution given the current state of limitations, but wondering if we could come up with one.
I think here is a perfect place to advertise my Super jace the wallet sculptor example deck.
The actual problem of thread deck advertising stems from the fact the deckcycle system can only support a certain number of users at any given time, as such the current system actually wants the site to chase away a large number of the user base rather than encourage people to upgrade so they can deckcycle more.
If the site hits a ceiling of deckcycling users it will likely have to change out the deckcycling system for one more suited to a large user base.
One small suggestion could be to utilize the small space between the username and comment number in comments as a spot to advertise a random deck from that user's profile page, it would encourage commenting (maybe have it only occur for mid to large comments as to discourage short comments) and hopefully reduce making threads just to advertise a decklist.
December 2, 2013 10:22 a.m.
If users could have a signature, it might solve it.
Regarding deckcycling - it might be possible to make the 'latest decks' queue twice as wide so that two decks are displayed side-by-side all the way down the column.
December 2, 2013 10:25 a.m.
I think the hardest part about all this is the advice epoch gave on using that forum for this specific topic.
"2.3: ForumsTappedOut has a dedicated deck help forum. If you've tried deckcycling but just aren't getting the feedback and views you want, try creating a help thread for your deck. There are a few general rules/guidelines for deck help threads:" source
Albeit it was given at a time when the user base was smaller and easier to maintain. The deck help threads where actually easier to navigate. We do just need one thread that's just 'advertise your deck here' or individual threads that ask about their deck for more input (which honestly I see happening more than the other threads). I also think we (as users) need to respond in the deck's list to maintain that consistency talking about a specific deck, not float back to a deck help thread.
gahh, it's hard to figure out an answer, going to easier things, like work, bbl.
December 2, 2013 10:28 a.m.
A signature could make a thead very messy as it would pop up on literally every comment, not to mention it wouldn't really fix the deck add issue as one would either have to cram every deck they want seen into it or change the signature constantly.
December 2, 2013 11:02 a.m.
Signatures are used on basically every forum I'm a member of - they're fine. As long as they're limited to text and links and not pictures it shouldn't be a problem.
December 2, 2013 11:17 a.m.
ChiefBell, the problem with that, is this is a custom piece of software built by yeaGO!... the time to implement them and the work to do it may not be the optimal solution. It sounds easy, but it's not as easy as 'add a column to the user table', 'add html'. the added processing to manage it is also required, depending on the templating used for the html, very time heavy on changing the html also. Next the software wasn't designed to be the forum you think it should be, that's another issue to overcome. If you look at it, these threads are just too basic and never given real thought or love at development because all that went one place, building decks and sharing them and some discussion on them, not a full fledged forum. This is also why 'sticky threads' aren't available. It maybe time to start discussing changes and possibly a rewrite of this software and an overhaul to handle this load of traffic and the (ab)use it gets, but it is not up to us so what is 'fine' and what isn't and what can be done and can't as we aren't doing any of the coding or putting in time to actually develop it. So lets try to make it work with what we have available.
December 2, 2013 11:29 a.m.
' but it is not up to us to say what is 'fine', what isn't and what can be done and can't as we aren't doing any of the coding or putting in time to actually develop it. So lets try to make it work with what we have available.'* (work is my focus, sorry).
December 2, 2013 11:34 a.m.
I'm not a software engineer but is it theoretically possible to steal existing code as implemented on other forums but keep the original code that makes the deckbuilder so great?
December 2, 2013 11:40 a.m.
I agree that we're not entitled to say what can and can't be done but we ARE perfectly entitled (as the userbase / consumers and ultimately the people that give this site traffic) to say what is fine and what isn't.
December 2, 2013 11:43 a.m.
ChiefBell Theoretically, there are stipulations with that, such as licensing of that software you're 'stealling from', next compatibility of the code. Not all forum software uses the same language for the backend processing, for example, php, python, ruby, even c++, and perl are commonly used for backend processing (This feels like a python product, specifically django framework, maybe ruby but I could be wrong), on top of that, their is enough differences between two people coding to make that change take time. It's not copy and pasta, never is and never should be.
Though using module's provided by others to implement some details is good and important to do.
Adding the features you suggest aren't modules by themselves but part of the larger whole that would be a module and can't be plugged in easily. There is db manipulation involved, adjustment of queries in the backend to learn about the db manipulation, forms to update, form processing to clean up the inputed data, the changes to css and html to display it nicely, this is for signatures alone. As for sticky threads, same things, done just a bit differently, a bool column added to the individual thread table, a form to be able to check that, security added so only x people can see it (though if it is django that part is relatively simple to add), form processing again (someone can just post without using the actual html, just send the right data to the server, which is easy), making the template learn of the changes, queries again to be changed. It takes time to do it, test it and make sure it's right before it can be done.
Technically it's not hard work to do, but it is tedious. Time is always a major factor in 'can it be done or not'.
Now if they were to change modules completely and put in a new forum software, there are things like db compatibility and conversion to make it compatible and updates for the new stuff, fixing the html to work with the new stuff, and that's just a whole nother beast.
December 2, 2013 11:53 a.m.
Thing is saying it's 'fine' is saying 'that's easy to do, it can be done with a snap of the fingers', it's just not that way, from a technical standpoint. That's what I really mean..
December 2, 2013 11:57 a.m.
Sorry, you misunderstood - I didn't mean 'fine' as in 'easy to do' I meant fine as in 'the product is working properly / I'm happy with how user friendly it is etc'.
I have absolutely no qualifications to say how easy or hard a change would be but I AM qualified to say what I like or dislike about the site.
December 2, 2013 12:22 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
Ultimately, it's up to yeaGO! whether features are implemented. I offer my input - just as you do - but I don't actually contribute to or manage any of the dev work.
I do agree that the Deck Help forum is constantly being flooded with uselessly uninformative attention threads, but there's little we can really do about that. As I discussed in this thread, we already recommend users be specific about what they hope to improve. We can't hold their hands all the time.
Unfortunately, there aren't many "solutions" to these problems. The issue is just that the current systems (deckcycling and Deck Help forum posts) become less effective as more people use them.
December 2, 2013 12:53 p.m.
One thing I am going to do soon is merge the "Favs" ("favorite formats") feature with the "Latest Decks", so you won't see latest decks for formats you have no interest in. Right now you could go to the Deck Builder page and see feeds of a particular format or hub. Its kinda the same but kinda not.
"Live" Latest Decks on front page - it could be kinda cool to sit there and watch a while for a deck you like, then click on it and comment.
Also we could bump up the meaning of "Accepted Suggestions" so maybe these people get awarded tokens.
Other ideas?
December 2, 2013 1:49 p.m.
As far as the site getting more traffic, that's just how things work, furthermore, I'd have to assume more than half the uninformative threads come from non-upgraded users who want more out of the site w/o upgrading. Typical mind set of any frugal/money-wise user.
It's a fine line between making the site accessible to non-upgraded users and keeping the exclusivitae, the value in upgrading ones account, balanced.
But perhaps something could be implemented, along the lines of limiting how many threads a non-upgraded user can make, perhaps just 1 per day, that would still give all users the ability to spam the forums at least once a day, while keeping the non-upgraded users in check while not limiting/punishing Upgraded users.
Making the differences between upgraded and Non-upgraded more pronounced is definately what prompted me to go for my own upgrade, seeing the colorful names and seeing the same deck in the deck cycle multiple times a day really makes a difference, you start recognizing users around the site and you become a part of that internet community.
Again, all this is contingent on putting in the effort in order to get something out of it.
Instead of overhauling the site, maybe limit the non-upgraded users ever so slightly more.
December 2, 2013 1:58 p.m.
I think if people felt like their decks got more time / attention on the frontpage then they wouldn't feel the need to post endless threads. Merging faves with latest decks is one way to ensure that decks stay up on the front longer. I think it's just people feeling like the deckcycling system isn't working for them and so they resort to posting threads.
December 2, 2013 2 p.m.
I think the ability to 'Earn" tokens while perusing TO is a great idea. It's always been the one aspect of the site that is almost 'white collar' aside from my initial upgrade, I've never been able to afford tokens, if I could earn even just a few for being a positive member of the site community, I would be thrilled.
December 2, 2013 2:03 p.m.
I don't think you can limit the number of threads that un upgraded users can post. What if they have questions for the format sections or the q&a ? Maybe limit the number of times they post in the deck help forum specifically.
December 2, 2013 2:05 p.m.
thats why everybody (non-upgraded everybodies) would get one a day ChiefBell and if they post it wrong, try again tmrw.
December 2, 2013 2:06 p.m.
Thats just an excessively authoritarian, interventionist approach.
December 2, 2013 2:27 p.m.
Well it's basically like saying you have to pay to use the forums which is definitely a solution but I just feel like it would drive users away which wouldn't be fantastic for the site. But yeh... it's definitely one way of doing things.
December 2, 2013 3:22 p.m.
i can detect whether something contains a deck link and then provide a warning.
We have to isolate what our goals are, though.
December 2, 2013 3:28 p.m.
Also, one potential problem with merging latest decks with favs is that less played formats will struggle to get comments on decks because users will no longer see those decks on the front page. I just feel like it would confine people to the formats that they play and make it harder (well - impossible) for them to stumble across cool decks from other formats. I occasionally comment and +1 modern decks for example (especially if they look popular and hyped) but it's not a favourite format for me.
December 2, 2013 3:34 p.m.
everyone will be opted in to all formats by default. then you can remove them as you see fit.
December 2, 2013 3:35 p.m.
yeaGO! - the problem is that individual requests for deck help are ok in the deck help forum, its just the massive 'everyone post your deck here' threads that irritate people. Now, if a thread contained more than about 5 deck links then that is indicative of the kind of thing that we don't want.
December 2, 2013 3:38 p.m.
can't you guys just ignore those posts? are there really that many?
December 2, 2013 3:45 p.m.
Actually, for me the problem isn't the threads, but the number of them going around, when one will suffice. It's like dueling banjos without the music, just noise. Thing is that they aren't hard to ignore but they clutter the forum so being able to see decks that actually are asking for help is harder because they get pushed back and sometimes it's not easy or timely to go to page 2-3 to find people needing real help. That's the real issue in my opinion.
December 2, 2013 3:53 p.m.
There was one, one day and then the next day there were like 3 or something and that continued. You'd have to talk to Epochalyptik because he's the mod. I just find it irritating because it's both clogging up the forums and making deckcycling redundant.
December 2, 2013 3:56 p.m.
Maybe Epochalyptik or yourself, yeaGO! should just start a single, official deck help thread? It would take the argument out of everything.
December 2, 2013 4:06 p.m.
What about banning these types of threads and replacing them with some kind of weird tumbling machine for comments. Give a comment and you can enter your deck into the machine, where it will tumble around until it gets a comment.
December 2, 2013 5:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
@yeaGO!: You would need to add a time limit to that idea. Otherwise, it would quickly fill with random decks and the queue would just grow. Otherwise, we could implement a system that checks for Deck Help threads created by each user, than locks each user's ability to create another Deck Help thread until one week later.
@ChiefBell: I don't see what the problem is in regards to the multi-deck threads. They're individual threads, and there aren't very many of them. I don't think there's any reason to ban them.
December 2, 2013 5:18 p.m.
I would think some sort of consistency is needed, in terms of everyone getting views for their deck. Personally, I like the deck cycle system we have now. I do dislike the deck help forum spammed with 'look at this deck' or 'getting attention on deck'. These I think should be banned from the forum, because it hurts the decycling incentive to upgrade. I do think this important and shouldn't have an easy work around. Maybe giving unupgraded 2 deckcycles per day and upgraded 4 upgraded. If an unupgraded user has points of X amount, they can get 3 cycles. (I know there is atleast one to 10 leveler without an upgrade, but probably deserves some sort of break for the work/time put in).
December 2, 2013 5:21 p.m.
We could try and encourage a criticism-for-criticism system where if you leave a comment on someones deck you post your own deck below the comment and ask for a comment in return. I used to use this sytem in a song-writing forum and it worked well.
December 2, 2013 5:28 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #40
@ChiefBell: That's ultimately up to the users; it would be difficult to even try to enforce a formal rule. I do think many users would follow through with a plan like that, though.
@yeaGO!: We should also think about implementing a general flood control that prevents one user from posting multiple threads within a few minutes of one another. This would clear up the duplicate posts. It seems like I have to delete one of those every day now.
December 2, 2013 5:39 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #41
I would just like to point out that I've noticed my thread from a while ago is up at the top of that forum almost every day. It's got 23 pages of replies, and I just want to make sure you're not thinking it's multiple threads. 'Cause it's literally got that exact name.
Otherwise, I don't check that forum daily so I don't know if there are any other threads like that out there, so think of this as a PSA to gufymike.
December 2, 2013 5:49 p.m.
Cobthecobbler I saw 2 up on the forum main page, one with all caps one with title case this morning. Then another example of the issue. I would like for yours to be able to be stickied and stay there, but that isn't possible with the situation. Then there is the issue that whole thread destabilizes the deck cycling system on the site and upgrades. Because people don't have an incentive to upgrade for the features/cycles, just post there. Read the whole thread before you get sanctimonious please.
December 2, 2013 5:54 p.m.
one last piece to sum up, those threads, being multple of 'i want views' hides the decks that are actually asking for help, because those view ones obscuring the others back to page 2-3 where getting there isn't possible for different reasons.
December 2, 2013 5:57 p.m.
How about this easy fix - somehow limit the number of replies on a deck help thread (either automatically or just as a written rule). All received comments must be posted on the linked deck but NOT in the thread. This discourages threads with loads of replies - ie. deck advertising threads. If deck help threads are limited in size then this advertising malarkey can't be done.
December 2, 2013 5:59 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #45
gufymike Thank you, I would like mine stickied as well ;3
You could also argue that the deck help forum should work kind of like the Q+A, where, instead of choosing an answer, you or a mod could instead close it to replies. We see all the time where a deck help thread either gets no feedback, or gets too much, but not even about the deck in question.
For example, a deck help thread always gets flooded with similar decks that actually hijack the thread itself, and people forget that they're here to help with someone elses deck.
Alternatively, you could prevent people from posting decklists onto deck help replies (bar the OP), this way if they want to suggest they take a look at their deck, they'd have to do it in the deck that is advertising its desire for help; driving traffic to the deck at hand and forcing people to at least take a look at it.
December 2, 2013 6:06 p.m.
So like I suggested - a fix is to make it so that replies to deck help have to go onto the actual deck and NOT the thread.
December 2, 2013 6:13 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #47
I didn't actually read the comments, I came too late to the party for that to be worth it
And, Precisely. If all the traffic is driven to the deck in question, rather than a forum that advertises it, there would be a lot more actual deck help going on.
December 2, 2013 6:23 p.m.
So yeaGO! lately I've noticed a slight issue with the suggestions system, it shows the deck owner the collection of suggested cards before the comment that suggests them, giving them an annoying door to door religion preachers feel instead of suggestions to better a deck with.
Based purely on my personal experience with receiving suggestions I actually list them as bad suggestions first and then read the comment, much like one would start with page one on a finals exam. If it is possible to move suggestions to be at the bottom of the comments that gave them instead of before all comments it would likely be helpful.
I also think rewarding good suggestions beyond a counter might be a bad idea as what exactly would stop me and a group of friends from farming these rewards? If the number of suggestions per user got limited like when the suggestion feature was added then you run into the issue of discouraging users from being too helpful (If there was a system that one was rewarded for every 100 steps they took outdoors with $20, but only credited the first 10 steps taken per day then the system would only discourage people from going outdoors)...
...Why can't I put this much effort into typing up sidequests for work >.>.
December 3, 2013 9:08 a.m.
Demarge hah. okay. thanks for the feedback.
Seems like we should probably limit people from mentioning their deck too many times in a timeframe. (spamming a bunch of decks and forums for their stuff).
As for the new rule on deck threads. I don't want to think of it in terms of limiting. I'd rather think of it in terms of a preferable feature. Example: Let's say we had a Help! queue where you could only enter one deck. It would work more like the MTG Q&A, where you'd accept an answer. Then that person could enter a deck into the Help! queue.
December 3, 2013 12:19 p.m.
But this new system is just going to encourage people to give god-awful comments so that they can enter their own deck. What happens if someone gets given a deck to comment on that they know nothing about? Can you refresh for a new one? What if it gives a deck that hasnt been updated for years?
I wouldn't want people commenting on my decks knowing that they only did it so that they can get comments on their own because it means those people will spend less than two minutes and looking amd give some half arsed suggestion.
The only way to stop it would be if people knew that the users deck that they commented on would also comment on their decks too. Then if you left a shitty comment you'd expect a shitty one in return.
Also, it's kind of unfair if you'r deck appears before some noob who's been playing for about a week. That's a waste of time.
ChiefBell says... #2
I've spoken to Epochalyptik about this very issue and he says that nothing can be done to prevent it altogether but if the same person posts multiple threads then duplicates will be removed. I think the site admins need to be vigilant to stop this sort of thing from getting ridiculous - it's already on the rise. Whilst I realise that the rules can't be changed to make it so that advertising multiple decks (or trying to encourage this in a single thread) results in its closure, I do think that users need to stop being so obsessed with posting decks all over the place and start actually asking for constructive help instead.
The usual response of 'but it gets more attention than deckcycling' is stupid. If everyone used threads instead of deckcycling it would; a) take revenue away from the site (fewer people will bother upgrading accounts for the extra deckcycles), b) create masses of threads in the forums (which will take up more of Epochs time moderating), and c) make it harder for individuals to request specific deck help and have an ongoing discussion about their deck (comments will be lost in the massive thread).
December 2, 2013 9:58 a.m.