Playtester Feedback and Version 2
TappedOut forum
Posted on Sept. 29, 2010, 11:09 p.m. by deleteme
Hi Everybody,
I am in the process of rewriting the playtester and would appreciate any input on the current playster you guys might have.
What features do you like? What's missing? What's important? What's not important? That kind of stuff.
Some of my goals for version 2 of the playtester are below:
- iPad, iPhone, and iPod Touch support!
- Firefox support
- Hardware Acceleration of animation/drag and drop via GPU
- No bugs!
Some cool new features I am thinking about, and please feel free to tell me what you think:
- Saving a snapshot and resuming
- Tokens: insert by type, support tapping
- Activity Log: prints out a record of activity by turns
- A way to visually look through the library, to better support more methods of fetching. Maybe also support a way to insert cards back into the library at specific points.
- yeago and I have also discussed a new idea of "goals" for your deck. A goal would be something like, "Have 10 lands in play by turn 6." Then, while playtesting, allow users to note the success or failure of these goals. This data then could be displayed on the deck's page, like, "75% of the time - Have 10 lands in play by turn 5." or "85% of the time - Have a plainswalker in play by turn 4."
Remember years ago in Magic comics had a scenario in which you were given one turn and the layout was presented to which you tried to work out what you needed to do in that turn to win?
Being able to make a dump screen for this kind of thing would be mad.
The goals idea sound interesting too.
Don't forget us android users too though! :)
September 29, 2010 11:43 p.m.
ilikeoldcardsbetter says... #4
I would like if you could put a card into play face-down (i.e. morph) and maybe even exile face down, 'cause some cards make you do that.
I like the token support idea too
and phone support sounds good
September 30, 2010 10:48 a.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #5
Love the idea of phone support. Go Go Iphone!
Suggestions - a way to zoom in on a card. Some cards have tiny rules text, which is WAY too hard to read in the actual play tester itself.
Also what about life up and down buttons, typing in numbers can be a hassle. For the phone maybe a spin wheel?
Ability to see two boards on a single screen? Perhaps by scrolling up and down?
Place for poison counters? Place for wither counters?
Place to put little dots or something on creatures who have enchants on them from opposing players? or a way to tutor up a card that isn't even in your deck to the play field?
Perhaps some way to designate the strength of a token? I like the tapping idea.
Little numbers to show up on the cars so we can tell what level they are?
October 1, 2010 1:20 a.m.
ilikeoldcardsbetter says... #6
@DeckBuilder345 you could the counter system that is already there for levels. Just press "c" when your mouse is on a card.
I hope you didn't know that already, so that what I said was helpful.
October 1, 2010 3:38 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #7
@ ilikeoldcardsbetter i had no idea that the c key did anything in the play tester.... just found out that the T and P keys also do stuff. O.o. Who knew....
Just punched up the Help section in the play tester... ZOMG! there are tons of commands. O.o. Zoom is even there!!!!
October 1, 2010 4:46 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #8
Zoom doesn't work so good though.... you use the space bard and the card gets all blurry.... hard to read even though the text is bigger.
October 1, 2010 4:47 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #9
Plus there is no way to remove counters from things that i see... so you can count up but not backwards.... obviously it would be helpful to go both directions for things like planeswalkers. Heck even regular cards add and loose counters on them too...
October 1, 2010 4:49 p.m.
While mousing over a card, press SHIFT + p or t or c to decrement the value of the power or toughness or counter.
October 1, 2010 4:59 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #11
O.o Learning so much about the play tester that i never knew. Maybe a tutorial on how to use that sucker is in order?
I mean maybe i have been disillusioned by all other help topics, which tend to be useless.... But i never though to click on help to figure out how the thing works. Help topics were generally for when things went wrong, and then were not very helpful. Not so much learning how to use something, and its features. My suggestion a little tutorial button.
October 2, 2010 12:57 a.m.
I agree that two playing fields would be nice if possible.
I strongly support a better token system! And a way to group them together. A lot of my decks are token decks so it would be really nice to be able to group them together and adjust their power/toughness so you don't have a bunch of tokens all over the place and you have to memorize the p/t of each one if some are different.
October 2, 2010 11:25 a.m.
@zylo: Why would you just not use another browser tab? What advantages or features would there be of having "two playing fields"?
@deckbuilder: An alternate way to zoom is to use the browser's built in zoom functionality. Hit ctrl or cmd + or -. The cards are not blurry this way.
October 2, 2010 11:39 a.m.
@Zylo
I too would love the prospect of using 2 fields for playtesting decks against each other, but that I fear would be infringing on MTGO territory and I think Wizards would not be too happy about that happening.
The benefits/practicalities of being able to get 2 decks loaded into a playtester would be insane. (being able to interact between the decks and how they would play out, visual options and thoughts on how best to make a play against certain decks, having a percentage opinion of how certain deck builds will fair against each other, possibilities are interesting) But if that was done, how soon then would it be before people start asking for chat abilities, then the ability to turn the playtester into a 2 person playtester, then how long before it becomes a Magic Workstation web app that wizards would certainly be unhappy with?
Don't get me wrong, I would love for something of that vain, but if there's a product that facilitates it already by the owners, then they would be rather miffed if they find that something similar is there taking people away from the actual game itself.
I'm not speaking on behalf of deleteme so (s)he may have a different opinion of it. but from my own viewpoint, as much as it would be fantastic to have, it could get very messy if the playtester does allow for 2 decks to interact in a way that could be deemed an infringment of the trademark that WoTC have with Magic.
October 3, 2010 5:30 a.m.
Okay, okay, I see your point. Looks like just having two windows open will have to do. Sorry for the request.
October 3, 2010 2:39 p.m.
The primary goal of the play tester is to be the best way online to TEST how a deck might play out. I have no intention of actually making it an online game. Maybe WotC will see my work and realize they need to make their own web based MTG game.
October 4, 2010 9:54 a.m.
zerotimestatechamp says... #17
If you could move the cards in your hand around that would be nice. Sometimes I feel the need to categorize them.
October 5, 2010 9:56 p.m.
I know you guys are continually looking for new ways to improve the site, such as the recent workstation etc. Is it possible to make a select button or something at the side of the cards, so you can switch cards in and out of your sideboard when drawing sample hands or playtesting? At the moment you have to manually re-edit your deck to play your sideboard.
Moved to this thread by yeaGO!. Original date was Aug 4th
October 6, 2010 11:40 a.m.
ilikeoldcardsbetter says... #19
I wrote this on your wall (deleteme) a while ago, but I'll write it here too. I would like to be able to ungroup cards, I always have to group equipments to lands when the equipped creature dies.
October 7, 2010 3:42 p.m.
@ilikeoldcardsbetter
Noted. At some point I had ungrouping working with the current playtester, but it broke when I added some new functionality.
October 7, 2010 4 p.m.
Is there a way to search top few cards and put them back as in "Scry"? If not, that would be a good add on. I also noticed when you put a card on top of the library, it shows face up, and isn't the next card you'll draw either.
October 8, 2010 10:37 a.m.
@android can you link me to a few cards that would require this functionality?
October 8, 2010 11:22 a.m.
I was looking at Crystal Ball and Preordain, but then I started thinking about the playtester, and I gotta admit... I decided not to add them to my deck because the playtester is very very limited in control of your library. That is unless there are hidden features somewhere. Maybe a button to call up the control options would be helpful.
October 8, 2010 2 p.m.
Ah! Sorry for double post, I ended pre-maturely.
RE: Double decks v browser tabs.
It is clunky as hell to need to flip between browser tabs to playtest my deck. You don't need a second player to playtest your deck against another deck. I frequently load up solo mode in MWS and operate both decks. I think this is a must for your program. Not because you intend to impliment online game play, but because you can only learn and test so much in Gold-Fish mode. You need to interact with another set of cards to learn your deck design flaws.
October 8, 2010 2:04 p.m.
mossflower says... #25
I'm already incredibly in love with the playtester, and I can't wait to see the new update. Amazingly, I see myself taking advantage of every single one of the proposed changes. I'd also like to emphasize DeckBuilder345's idea to have a "tutorial" button instead of "help." It may seem rather silly, but I think the new user is more likely to become familiar with all the features of the playtester if the information is presented as a "tutorial" instead of "help."
October 9, 2010 3:55 a.m.
theburchman says... #26
I second the scry functionality, I can't put cards back on top or view them without filling the screen for stuff like cascade and Jace. It gets hella confusing. The ability to also draw the card that is revealed on op instead of having to drag it or get a random card is also needed. I am confused about the ability to fut cards into or on the bottom of your library.
October 11, 2010 11:28 p.m.
Yesterday I came across a card that I felt would be an amazing add to my deck. I inserted it, and then drew it in my opening hand. I tossed out a Forest, turned that bad boy sideways and flung an Ancient Stirrings on to the table, then realized that, just like Crystal Ball, I can't possibly utilize the card in the playtester. I can't look at the top five cards without drawing them nor can I put the other four cards on the bottom of the library.
I think that library control is something that needs attention asap in order to best perform typical game functions.
Think about all the ways you use your library:
- Draw a card. Ancestral Recall
- Reveal cards from your library. Polymorph
- Look at top X cards. Ancient Stirrings
- Put x cards on bottom of library. Ancient Stirrings
- put x cards from top to graveyard. Traumatize
- put a card X cards from top of library. Long-Term Plans
- put a card from hand on top library Brainstorm
- play with top card revealed. Future Sight
- search your library. Demonic Tutor
- opponent searches your library. card:Jester's Cap
Dare I say that there are more options for what you can do with your library than cards on the battlefield?
October 12, 2010 8:19 a.m.
Okay this is starting to annoy me. Have none of you learned on your own how to scry with the playtester?! It's so easy! It's called you draw however many cards you're scrying and then drag and drop them back on top of your library in any order. Whoa! I didn't realize how EASY that as!
But wait some of you might be saying "But Zylo what if you want to put them on the bottom of your library?" Well how many times in a play test would the bottom of the library come into question? Not very many so you might as well throw the cards you'd put on bottom in the exile spot. But if you did need the bottom of the library just order them in the exile pile the way you'd order them on the bottom of the library and just move the actual exiled cards beneath those.
IT'S THAT HARD PEOPLE!
Draw a card. Ancestral Recall ~Click the library. Whoa, you drew a card!
Reveal cards from your library. Polymorph ~Draw cards until you reveal the one you need. If you need to shuffle them back in you simply move them to exiled then you move them to library and click shuffle.
Look at top X cards. Ancient Stirrings ~Uhh... Draw them and then drag the cards back on top of the library
Put x cards on bottom of library. Ancient Stirrings ~See above paragraph
put x cards from top to graveyard. Traumatize ~Draw the cards and them move them to the graveyard.
put a card X cards from top of library. Long-Term Plans ~Got me here, only thing you can't do with out knowing what the cards on top of it are, but honestly, how many people use these types of cards? Not many.
put a card from hand on top library Brainstorm ~Drag and drop...
play with top card revealed. Future Sight ~Draw the card and then drag it back on top.
search your library. Demonic Tutor ~Type in the name of the card you want with the search function -_-
opponent searches your library. card:Jester's Cap ~You're playing by yourself, hence no opponent, hence your argument for this card is invalid.
The library functionality really does not need work at all. It's the users that need work because many people don't know how to discover things on their own, which is why it'd be good for a tutorial to be put in.
October 12, 2010 2:17 p.m.
That is the stupidest argument that I have ever heard! The guy is asking for suggestions on how to improve his product. He is not asking for people to justify his work with duct tape and work-arounds.
Now, what I find really annoying is that you took the time to rip my list apart and justify your thoughts when I was not even trying to do anything other than provide a list of library manipulation requirements. DUH! There is no opponent. Thanks for the whiley insight. The point was that off of the top of my head there were ten different ways to manipulate your library and at the present time, the only thing I can do is draw a card or tutor for a card.
Finally, this is called playtest, not concepting. I should be running through my deck as if it were a game situation. That includes being forced to use the games mechanics properly, learning the actual play of the game, as well as pacing of the deck. I also need to prime myself for the rate in which resources are expended. Which means, that everytime I get a chance to go through my library, I need to make a mental note of what's left. It is 50x easier to see what is left rather than keep flipping through my hand and my graveyard and my exiled and my battlefield.
Why can't deleteme, bless his heart for making a product and wanting feedback, improve the program and not be content with a program that is lacking actual functionality. Don't mistake my annoyance here. I am not annoyed with the program or its maker in this post. I am annoyed that someone (Zylo) would seriously rather draw a bunch of cards to his hand and then manually flip stuff back to its rightful place than have a window pop up that allows you to re-arrange stuff and put it back properly. I am sure that when you playtest with cardboard, you don't add your library to your hand when you look at your top 7 cards and that you don't just add the other 6 cards to the top of your library and then shuffle it when asked to put a card on the bottom of the library. The order of the library, just like your graveyard, is of vital importance and its integrity should be held sacred. If your creature is put to the bottom of your library, that is not the same as shuffle it into your library.
I apologize deleteme. I never intended this to turn into a flame war and I won't go any further. I was just trying to be helpful and provide you with information to think about. Being a fellow website owner, I understand the importance of getting other perspectives and weighing the pros and cons of things and making a good decision once the information is gathered.
October 12, 2010 3:09 p.m.
wow ok guys, calm down. I am sure that deleteme is looking into making all needed changes
October 12, 2010 5:33 p.m.
mossflower says... #31
DeckBuilder345 kind of mentioned this as well(I like his ideas), but maybe a spot for poison counters? The current counters system only allows counters on cards (needs to be able to put them on tokens too). Maybe you could have a poison token go on the field, and put counters on that. Or, you might even want to put a poison box right next to the life box.
As an aside, Zylo and Tynion don't have mutually exclusive ideas: A comprehensive tutorial and improved library manipulation are both features deleteme should consider adding.
Also, for the proposed "Goals" idea, how would you keep track of turns? I think you should tie it to the "untap" button. You could rename the button "Start Next Turn", and it would untap your field and increment a "turn" variable by one. I know there are certain cards that don't untap during the untap step, but you could just retap those. You could also keep track of: cards played this turn, damage dealt this turn, life gained this turn, number of cards cards drawn this turn, lands played this turn, number of lands played this turn, etc. When they press the "Start Next Turn" button, add the values to a list, then set them to 0 again for the new turn. You even provide options for what variables to be tracked and even the option to create your own custom statistic (I specifically would use "turn I kick off Beastmaster Ascension "), and have the results saved and displayed on the deck's page, maybe underneath the tournament results part. The custom statistic could kept by having a Unique Goal variable be set to false at the beginning of every turn, and allowing them to set it to true on the turn they accomplish what they wanted to accomplish with their deck. You've already kept track of turns, and with multiple playtests, you can calculate how often you accomplish your goal on turn x(#times accomplished on turn x/ total # of playtests). In the deck edit page, you can then modify which results you want to show other people. You might think of a better way to implement "Goals", but I think it might work well that way. tl;dr- I like the goals idea.
October 12, 2010 6:29 p.m.
I apologize for my insulting behavior if you took it that way, I was currently in an angry mood already. My whole point was that everyone seems to act like you can't already scry or do 9 out of the 10 things you listed Tynion to the library WHEN YOU ALREADY CAN. Sure, it'd be nice for an improved system, but again you act like you can't already when you can. That was my whole point. Sorry this set off an inter-webz fight.
October 12, 2010 7:59 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #33
@ deleteme with regards to why would you just not use another browser tab? What advantages or features would there be of having "two playing fields"?
The answer is you could move enchantments from one play field to another field. Things like Mind Control , Spreading Seas , Pacifism , etc all come to mind as examples of times when you would like to move cards from one play area to the next, which is not possible in a second tab.
October 13, 2010 11:58 a.m.
I like the idea of variable tokens, e.g. soldier, zombie etc. But for counters I would like to have dice instead of poker chips. Click the button to make a die, then click it (or some other manipulation) to make it go up until it re-sets. I'd also like it to go on the top layer, rather than the bottom, so you can place them on cards instead of splaying them round the edge.
I use dice in actual play because often you end up with more than glass gems or whatever can be practical representing and I've come up against the same limitation in the tester. I've tried to cast a 30-odd mana Protean Hydra in the play tester and decided that I wouldn't bother with the chips.
Thanks. (And thanks for making it in the first place!)
October 13, 2010 2:06 p.m.
Oh god ignore me, I just had a look at the help and found the p,t,c thing.
October 13, 2010 2:12 p.m.
It would be awesome to be able to put a card in the deck and shuffle it. Also being able to put a card on the bottom of the deck. The ability to mill, and being able to have poison counters. Just some food for thought.
October 13, 2010 2:55 p.m.
@alexheyer You can shuffle a card into the library. You just move the card you want to shuffle into the exile pile and then move it ontop of your library and click shuffle and PRESTO. Also, you already can mill, just draw the card and drag it to the graveyard...
October 13, 2010 3:28 p.m.
Hi Everybody,
Keep the feedback coming! This will help me prioritize the features I develop!
No idea is a bad one. If you think of something cool, post it here. I think eventually what I'll do is try to rig up some way for you guys to vote on what's important, and I can start from the top.
October 13, 2010 3:32 p.m.
Is something wrong with the play tester. When you search for a card in your deck, the options for which cards are available stays open instead of closing after you select a card.
October 14, 2010 12:28 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #40
@ deleteme As a response to your comment "@deckbuilder: An alternate way to zoom is to use the browser's built in zoom functionality. Hit ctrl or cmd + or -. The cards are not blurry this way."
Often times this results in moving the cards off the play test screen, or bunching cards up one atop another, making it difficult to see or to find the card you zoomed in to read.
@ alexheyer I am having the same issue. A workaround you can use is to type in something which does not correspond to any of the cards in your deck. For the deck i was testing i typed in cra and it closed up.
October 14, 2010 5:24 p.m.
ilikeoldcardsbetter says... #41
@DeckBuilder345 I was having the same problem as alexheyer, thanks for the tip
I would also like to be able to scry, even if you can already do it...sort of
October 16, 2010 3:32 p.m.
Some things I believe would be awesome to see in a Version 2:
- Much like your suggested ability to visually browse the Library, a similar function would be nice for the Graveyard as well.
- +1 to the snapshot/load functionality.
- In addition to iOS support, Android would be an equally beneficial addition.
- If possible, it would be awesome to see the snapshot/load idea expanded further to allow 2 community members to playtest one anothers' decks over time much like email-chess back in the olden-days of the internet.** Players could save a snapshot of their playtest's status and be prompted with an option to share it with a friend within the community.** The recipient friend would receive a message with the snapshot, load their personal playtest's snapshot, respond to the friend's move, and repeat the process.
November 14, 2012 1:51 p.m.
Dreamseller says... #43
So in my deck During your end step I had Brainstorm and on gathering.magic it says it is modern legal, when I entered it onto my decklist it was highlighted as not modern legal yet its not on any banned list and as mentioned above it is apparently modern legal.
Cheers for your help
June 9, 2015 1:51 a.m.
Check out the official database for legality questions:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Printings.aspx?multiverseid=382224
Despite it not showing "Banned" on that page under "Sets and Legality" the absence of the format Modern indicates that the card is banned in modern. The reasoning why is that the card was never printed in a modern legal set.
As much as I would love to play the card it could let Twin and Storm get out of hand. Also it hates on discard big time which I personally love but at the same time I realize that being able to hide the card you need to win so easily renders discard nearly useless. The whole point of discard is to remove threats before they can be played after all.
Stick to legacy for this one. Or just play casual sometimes. Using this in 
artifacts or Storm is tons of fun.
June 9, 2015 2:01 a.m.
Brainstorm has never been printed in a set that is modern legal (8th edition and up). This makes Brainstorm illegal in modern.
June 9, 2015 2:03 a.m.
Dreamseller says... #46
Ah cheers guys, I got excited over thenChasm Skulker draw lol
June 9, 2015 2:14 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #47
As the others suggest, not being banned is quite different from being legal. A card will only be listed as banned if it would otherwise be legal but has been explicitly excluded from the format.
deleteme says... #2
I'm not really sure how I would pull this off, but I would love to have the ability to link to a saved playtest, and go forward and backward through the various actions and turns.
Imagine being able to mock up certain combos or arrangements, and link to it in a post or article!
September 29, 2010 11:13 p.m.