PSA: Cruel Control
TappedOut forum
Posted on Nov. 12, 2014, 9:26 p.m. by OpenFire
Cruel Control is a Modern, Legacy (and once Standard) Grixis (U/B/R) Control deck that utilizes Cruel Ultimatum as a finisher. If your control deck operates cruelly, you still might not be playing Cruel Control. Just wanted people to know. Also, Counters refers to +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, not counterspells. If anyone has questions about hubs, just ask.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #3
Also of note, Team America decks are not UWR decks. While that color combination is called America, the Team America decks were a legacy BUG shell filled with tempo/resource manipulation and that usually used something like Tombstalker for the kill. Roughly one out of every one hundred decks in the Team America hub is actually categorized correctly.
November 12, 2014 10:45 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #4
And that other hub is being used wrong as well, because its decks are the wrong decks in the wrong hubs.
November 13, 2014 12:27 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #5
I hate hub whores...they are the bane of my existence...
November 13, 2014 1:03 a.m.
Maybe some three months ago I argued in a similar thread that how we as a community define cruel control might be changing. Even if the way we talk about the archetype is largely warped by misunderstood origins, it's where we end up in that matters. After all, 'cruel control' has no inherent meaning at all. It only carries significance because we assign it to this combination of words. If the community slowly changes what cruel control stands for then it might become commonplace for decks to be labeled as cruel control and not actually include Cruel Ultimatum. Just food for thought, I guess.
November 13, 2014 1:54 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #8
I concur, TheDevicer. Language, in general, is community driven. Words mean what we use them to mean (and what they're understood to mean). If everybody started calling their Burn decks 'Group Hug' decks, then people would start to understand 'Group Hug' to mean a deck with lots of fire. Same for Cruel Control, or anything else.
Just look at how in the past few months American has become Jeskai. Three months ago, labeling a deck 'Jeskai Tempo' would have meant absolutely nothing to anybody. Now, it has meaning.
November 13, 2014 6:56 a.m.
It also isn't just hub whores using the hub wrongly, or new players who are obviously ignorant of its meaning. See End of the World - Land Destruction.
November 13, 2014 7:35 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #11
Control that isn't inherently cruel is called tempo. "Cruel Control" is redundant outside of actually using Cruel Ultimatum.
November 13, 2014 7:41 p.m.
Raoul_de_Cambrai says... #12
Honestly it seems a waste of a term to insist on pigeon holing the term "cruel control" to control decks that use one particular card (that is already falling out of favor with this game). Aspects of cruel control are seen in many control decks that depart from the usual reactive counter/unsummon/lock-down decks we see most commonly. Any deck that does not rely primarily on instants for its control, and seeks to control by eliminating threats through destroying them and/or discarding them still carries the essence of the archaic . . cough cough . . . I mean archetypical cruel control decks and thus should be deemed properly labeled as "cruel control" despite the potential (and honestly probable) lack of the card Cruel Ultimatum.
July 11, 2015 7:53 p.m.
Raoul_de_Cambrai says... #14
Because I think the topic is still relevant and I am trying to come to a better understanding of the game. Currently the meta is broken down into three major meta strategies (aggro, control, combo) with three alternative "intermediary strategies" (aggro-control, midrange, combo-control); however, the typical analysis does not account for the fact that there are several different types of control as there are several types of aggro and combo decks. Of course as a general tool for analyzing the game, we really can't expect it to be overly specific, but when you want to look at the game in a more detailed level (but still not so detailed that you are essentially analyzing specific games) it is important to realize certain facts i.e. sorcery based hand control is wonderful for fighting most all combo decks and is usually a good match up for instant based counter/unsummon decks, but it is usually rather underwhelming against wide aggro decks, whereas instant speed counter or board control (creature/other-permanent removal) decks tend to be more adaptable and thus more popularly seen. With that said, "Cruel control" decks tend to behave more aggressively trying to actively deplete their enemy whereas most control decks tend to behave more defensively than the cruel control decks of old. Of course all control decks play games of attrition, yet cards like cruel ultimatum (and the others that complement its style of control), tend to actively disrupt and attack the enemy as well as wear him down (compare blightening vs dismal failure). Furthermore (and perhaps more importantly), the control strategies employed by cruel control decks tend to be more diversified in that they make extensive use of hand control in addition to the typical board control and spell control (counter spells) seen in nearly all control decks (this is often enabled by the grixis color pool, but isn't necesarilly achieved only by that particular combination of colors). With that said I believe many control decks achieve this aggressive style of controlling it's opponents, utilizing effective board, spell, and hand control distinguishing itself from control decks like say Shahar Shenhar's grand-prix winning control deck or Shaheen Soorani's Azorius contro l deck (don't know if that one won anything tbh) without using the particular card "Cruel Ultimatum." Despite the fact it may not use the card "Cruel Ultimatum," it should still be rightfully called a "Cruel Control" deck, otherwise there really never was such a thing as a "Cruel Control" any more than there was a "remand" deck.
July 11, 2015 9:24 p.m.
Raoul_de_Cambrai says... #15
In other words, I want to reopen wide spread community based discussion on its definition
July 11, 2015 9:24 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #16
Meta's change.
No one cares about this discussion anymore.
Check dates before posting.
July 12, 2015 5:47 p.m.
Raoul_de_Cambrai says... #17
- precisely why discussion regarding interpretation of the definition is interesting
- obviously not true
- I did and found the fact that a few months passing only enhances the reason why reinterpreting the idea of cruel control in a new meta is interesting
- if this thread bothers you than ignore it
July 12, 2015 10:16 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #18
A nine month old thread is not the place to have a discussion about "redefining" the term (which, since Cruel Control decks are called that because they are an archetype of decks utilizing the card Cruel Control, not a deck that controls very cruelly, is not going to happen), then start a new thread. A new thread would accomplish two things: Renew interest in the discussion, and give it more attention than the two of us telling you (the only one here interested in the discussion) to check post dates before posting.
July 13, 2015 12:07 a.m.
Raoul_de_Cambrai says... #19
I did not advance the arguement that Cruel Control is a deck that controls Cruelly. If you aren't even going to read the posts then please do ignore further posts. I might take up your idea of starting a new thread though, even thought I don't see a real point to as there are already several on the topic.
July 13, 2015 12:26 a.m.
start a new topic and nobody will hate you :P you will also get more eyeballs on your discussion because it will go to the top of the list.
July 13, 2015 6:18 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #21
"Despite the fact it may not use the card "Cruel Ultimatum," it should still be rightfully called a "Cruel Control" "
Who said that? Oh, you.
Also, Mr. Go, may we close this thread that is going absolutely nowhere and contributing nothing to the discussion proposed?
July 13, 2015 10:07 a.m. Edited.
Raoul_de_Cambrai says... #22
I did say that; however, you still fail to understand that I did not advance the position that cruel control should be labeled based on its subjective level of cruelty. Unfortunately you are right that this thread has gone nowhere and is now doomed to go nowhere, but that is thanks largely to the fact that you have plunged it into an argument for the fact that you seem unable to ignore posts in which you are not interested.Close it if you will moderator (for at this point the thread might not come back from the dead) but I should not be hated on for participating in a preexisting thread.
July 13, 2015 3:39 p.m.
the necro policy is admittedly kind of informal. enforcement of it i think could be a little kinder given that :P
at any rate. yeah, start a new thread about it if you want to talk about it since this is hardly a vibrant discussion.
reverendvile777 says... #2
Cruel Control is definitely not a thing in Legacy lol. That being said, hub whores are gonna be hub whores, nothing that can really be done about it.
November 12, 2014 9:35 p.m.