Small tweak to "format" and "hubs"
TappedOut forum
Posted on Dec. 27, 2013, 4:39 a.m. by Dorotheus
"Casual" needs to be pulled out of Formats, its just the opposite of "competitive" and should be in the hubs. Like, I should be able to list a modern deck that is also a casual one. It'd be more accurate.
Also, people are DYING to have "Pillow Fort" in the hubs.
vampirelazarus says... #3
I could see casual being added to hubs, but not taken out of formats, because it is a format. When you say Modern, people assume it is competitive. That's the difference between labeling a deck Modern and a deck Casual, and having it be legal.
If its casual, I won't suggest $20+ cards, but if its labeled Modern, I will, then get yelled at because its casual.
December 27, 2013 5:12 a.m.
Exactly vampirelazarus, it'd make it easier to understand what you can suggest, if anything.
December 27, 2013 5:20 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Casual will not be removed from the format listings because casual is a format. vampirelazarus is correct.
Players tend to classify their casual decks as just that - casual decks. It's comparatively rare for a player to identify a deck by sanctioned format first, then as casual second. The sanctioned formats are understood to be competitive.
December 27, 2013 11:02 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #7
Format isn't limited to competitive play or tournaments. many plagroups agree on a format to have a power limit, even if play is not competitive.
I'd say that "format" simply describes where it's legal to play, competitive or not. So the casual format could be renamed to, well, maybe "freestyle" or something and casual added to the hubs. That way, competitive could mark the most competitive decks, and casual the least competitive fun decks, while the semi-competitive middle doesn't use any of them.
If you want to be sure to suggest adequately priced cards, just look for the competitive tag, and suggest expensive stuff only as "maybe, if you think it's worth it" on decks that don't have it.
December 27, 2013 11:09 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
The casual format is best kept as the casual format because that's the term people will recognize and identify a deck with. "Freestyle" means nothing to the MTG community.
And the casual format exists specifically for the reason mentioned earlier: it makes it immediately obvious what the intent of the deck is. It's generally assumed that a deck labeled as one of the sanctioned formats is meant for competitive play in that format. Therefore, a causal format listing is necessary to avoid confusion on the viewers' part.
I also added the pillow fort hub.
December 27, 2013 11:27 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #9
Assumptions... Dangerous, they are. Misunderstandings, they lead to. The competitive hub is there for a reason, one should think. But I rarely suggest expensive cards, so I'm on the safe side either way. :P
December 27, 2013 11:34 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
I have never seen a single misunderstanding as a result of a deck being labeled casual by format. I have seen dozens of misunderstandings as a result of a deck being labeled Standard, Modern, Legacy, or Vintage by format and still being casual in nature.
December 27, 2013 11:36 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #11
My point exactly. The assumption that a deck that is legal in a certain format is also meant to be competitive is not reliable, those misunderstandings are living proof for it. Legality and competitivenes should not be confused.
That's also the reason for the competitive hub: To state that this deck is (or is meant to be) competitive . Therefore, not using the hub states that the deck is not (or not yet) competitive.
December 27, 2013 12:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
Those misunderstandings were the reason the casual format was implemented.
I'm going off the patters I noticed over my three years on this site and two (maybe it's two-and-a-half) years moderating it. People associate sanctioned formats with competitive intent because the sanctioned formats are only played competitively. Nobody seems to call their kitchen table games "Standard" unless they're playtesting. That pattern transitions to the site, so now the sanctioned format listings are associated with competitiveness. The casual format listing was created to give an instant and obvious indication of what a deck is and isn't.
Also, fewer people tend to look at hubs than at format listings.
December 27, 2013 12:15 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #13
Well, I must be nobody then, and the other players in my group too. Incredible that we still manage to meet and play. :D
I think there are quite a lot of people considering format legality outside of sanctioned events. It is a way to match your deck against halfway equal opponents, and that is always a desirable effect, not only in sanctioned play. Our playgroup for example agreed on legacy. It would be horrible if one half would bring standard decks and the other half brings vintage decks, because 3/4 of the pairings are ruled out due to the power difference.
Format also is a clear statement on the range of cards a deck includes, so it offers a certain amount of information when looking at a deck-large or frontpage display.
The casual format might have been implemented to differ casual from non-competitive decks, but it is rejected by those who value legality and match making / card range information more than competitiveness, and therefore can't fulfill that purpose reliably.
Besides, competitive is a relative term, legality isn't. It's just normal if people think that legality is what counts most and put competitiveness in second place when choosing formats.
December 27, 2013 12:38 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #14
Typo in the first line of the second last paragraph. Scratch the "non".
December 27, 2013 12:42 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #15
I know for my own playgroup, and we've had this conversation before on T/O, some people are newer players and some have been around since Beta. So when I label a deck Standard it's because those are the limitations put on me by a playgroup where one of the guys runs 4 Coral Merfolk in his strongest deck. I guess you could label your deck as "budget" but that's not exactly the same thing as Casual.
I do believe there is a place for a casual hub though. The assumption that people will put the limitations in their description also assumes people write descriptions
December 27, 2013 2:17 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
The reason people identify their decks with sanctioned formats tends - with overwhelming frequency - to be that those decks are meant for play in those formats. Those formats are played competitively. That's why they're sanctioned - they have rules and procedures that orient the format around structured, competitive play.
I'm not disputing that there are playgroups that use causal decks designed by format rules, but meant for casual play. But the identifying aspect of those decks is that they are still casual decks. They aren't meant for competitive play. Therefore, it is more appropriate to label the deck casual by format and Standard or Modern or whatever by description.
And our current system still allows the reverse: users can post decks in Standard, Modern, or whatever, then mention int he description that those decks are for casual play only. But this route leads to more confusion than the other method.
tl;dr: The casual format listing is not going anywhere.
December 27, 2013 2:32 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #17
Would there be a problem with simply adding a Casual hub then? Seeing as there exists a hub to identify a given deck as competitive, then the opposite should exist. If the argument is that "the sanctioned formats are implicitly competitive" then having a "Competitive" hub seems redundant.
That being said, I see the potential for Casual to be redundant as a Hub too. BUT does the redundancy of an extra label really hurt anyone? The more information we can communicate the easier further communication becomes. If anything it could reduce the number of "I just play this deck for fun" comments people feel compelled to respond with.
It would be interesting to see which would end up being used more.
December 27, 2013 7:45 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
I'll add the casual hub because it doesn't really hurt to have it.
smash10101 says... #2
I am in support of a pillowfort hub. However, Your Authority Is Not Recognized In Fort Kickass.
I think casual is a format. I make my casual decks without referring to any banlist, and tune for multiplayer.
December 27, 2013 4:49 a.m.