System for Avoiding Trade Scammers
TappedOut forum
Posted on Nov. 16, 2011, 6:37 p.m. by yeaGO
Hello all,
It seems that TappedOut has its first official trade scammer buddy. Buddy, I apologize if it turns out this isn't the case, but let's be real: statistically its not likely for the post office to discriminate against you so much =)
I'm opening up this topic for people to discuss a system for spotting scammers. My first thought was: 'If someone is here creating decks and being part of our community, they aren't likely to scam'.
Well, clever scammers can always create fake decks and look really active.
I could come up with a system that allowed people to 'register' trades and make them public. But so what? People could come up with fake accounts and register a bunch of trades with themselves.
What do you guys think?
cryptichorror says... #3
Sadly, I don't think there really is a good way to protect traders. What's the most sad part to me is that people are willing to cheat, lie and steal for a game! Don't get me wrong, I love MTG as much as anyone here, but we can still acknowledge what it is. Am I upset that I lost a Snapcaster in this deal? Sure. It would be a great thing to still have in my collection. But really, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It's just too bad that buddy (and sorry if you are innocent) felt that getting cards he wanted was important enough to steal and lie.
November 16, 2011 6:56 p.m.
Let's not turn this into a whipping session for buddy--lets really think hard about how we can make things like this harder. We can't totally protect users, but I feel we could have avoided this situation or made it less profitable.
November 16, 2011 6:57 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #5
I certainly think it will be difficult to protect against scammers. It does happen. I am personally taking steps to ensure that this doesn't happen by getting tracking numbers from people that I haven't traded with in the past or have no history of trading in the past.
My thoughts to help prevent this from a site's vantage point would be a rating system on trade binders. If you have had a successful trade with the person you can rate them up one on their binder and your name will appear as well so that everyone else knows who has traded with that person successfully.
I like the idea about having some sort of active trade list that everyone can view.
The other part of this of course goes back to my original statement and that would be on a personal level ask for tracking numbers from people you aren't familiar with or haven't traded with before.
Some way to provide feedback on a person's trade trustworthiness would probably be helpful. These are some ideas about it.
November 16, 2011 7:10 p.m.
why dont you as the website act as go between? i for one think you guys rock and the guys i have traded with have been nice i have recieved one set of cards hopefully they have recieved mine too and two more transactions are currently being sent. but these people are active been members for ages and are genuinely top people and they have recommended and are recommended by a number of other highly active people. but if you guys (tapped out) are the go betweens it would offer ultimate protection to traders? im sorry if this sounds like alot of work for you guys i just thought it would be a good idea!
November 16, 2011 7:12 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #7
I think while that would be awesome and would certainly work in theory, the problem is that they would have probably 100 trades a week to deal with. I don't think that that is an exaggeration since I have I think 4-5 trades going from just today and those people each of other trades going too. So tons of work, plus if we send it to them then they would have to send it to someone else and that would be tons on postage. Good idea and there might be something there, but it definitely needs to have something else there.
November 16, 2011 7:16 p.m.
cryptichorror says... #8
I agree with rckclimber777. It's not possible to protect everyone, but even if there were a button, kinda like the +1 button on decks, that appeared on one's trade binder. Then, if you trade and receive your cards, go give their trade binder score a click. If that would not only display the score (number of successful trades) but also the name of the person who gave the click, it might be a way to track how many successful trades that person has conducted as well as the list of people traded with. It's not perfect, but it might help to raise flags against someone who might be a scammer.
November 16, 2011 7:18 p.m.
it may be worth the extra dollar (or in my case 1 lol) to send an extra envelope etc to make sure if the trades are big money obviously if the tapped out guys want too lol. maybe we can pay a registration fee to become traders? that would give the tapped out dudes something for their effort and also make everything a little more official etc???
November 16, 2011 7:19 p.m.
I can't act as a go-between =). A) it would double shipping and make everything expensive B) I would have to charge something for my trouble =).
That doesn't mean that people can't independently agree to have someone else on the site act as a go-between (escrow). In fact, maybe this should be more regular (especially for big trades). It would also encourage people to trade with friends or friends-of-friends, which is naturally safer.
So yeah, the main issue at this point seems to be "5 people were waiting on cards from this person" and that should not have been allowed to happen.
I don't like having a 'history' of trades because people can create fake histories with puppet accounts and look really really active. They can't fake the fact that people are waiting on them for cards.
November 16, 2011 7:22 p.m.
metalmagic says... #11
A section could be dedicated to referrals so we know exactly who is a good trader, although that doesn't tell us who is a bad one. To get referrals if one does not have any, they could be asked to send their cards first and receive later. This could be for the first trade only, just to get their first referral. I really don't see any legitimate way to prevent this type of situation from happening, though, just ways to help slightly strengthen the trust amongst users.
November 16, 2011 7:26 p.m.
metalmagic says... #12
Well, I didn't actually submit my comment until like 10 minutes after I typed it, so obviously the same ideas have been mentioned, lol.
November 16, 2011 7:27 p.m.
It's amazing how one person can ruin anything for everyone.
November 16, 2011 7:29 p.m.
I haven't been on here long, I prefer trading with people I know and can see, rather than taking a chance on someone I don't know.
November 16, 2011 7:30 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #15
Well then the best solution I see is setting up some sort of pending trade list with dates of trades, whether or not the item has been shipped and if so when was it shipped. I agree that this will at least deter others from trading with people who have not come through on trades.
The other aspect of course will certainly have to be on the personal level where you simply make the decision only to trade with people who you trust (whether because of past trades or people you've traded with refer you to them etc.) or set up safeguards such as tracking numbers or simply don't trade with them.
I think one of the best points you make though is in the trade binder itself and that's basically trade with the understanding that it is possible that you're dealing with a scammer (unlikely of course, I've had MANY trades on here and only one has ever fallen through).
November 16, 2011 7:32 p.m.
This sucks but I am glad that you guys are all coming up with some great ideas, for the site to help and to protect yourselves too.
The go between would be a ton of work. But more than that, everything yeaGO! said is correct. The cost would be prohibitive to traders. I mean why trade 2 five dollar cards if you have to spend that much for shipping and a go between.
November 16, 2011 7:57 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #18
May I say that you guys rock. I mean really. I will certainly be around on this site as long as I play magic.
November 16, 2011 8:06 p.m.
yeah i understand the problems with go betweens but that is the only sure fire way i can think of TBH :-(. i agree with rckclimber777 this is the best site i have ever found using google!:-) i live in the UK so it is already pretty hard for me to get a trade worth the postage lol but if the trade is something of particular value wither loads of cards or a very expensive one (here looking at you planeswalker scum!) maybe it is still worth exploring. at the end of the day i would happily give TappedOut $5 or something like that plus another package and the $1 or so for the extra shipping if it meant my $50 dollar worth of cards were safe but im just thinking out loud sorry! :-) i just feel sorry for the people who have suffered and i am trying to help if possible. maybe have a prrof of address thing to sign up to be able to trade so if the person screws someone we can send the heavies around! :-)
November 16, 2011 8:20 p.m.
I like what rckclimber777 said. only thing i would add that it be a site rule if you dont have 5 recommendations or more that you have to ship your cards first. And upon arrival yours will be shipped out with haste. Helps against newer people trying to scam. Outside of that though i really dont see what you can add that would protect active traders besides a middle man. I for one will volunteer myself. I am a very active trader. And i am in the middle of the United States (Texas). would you like some credentials lol.
November 16, 2011 9:09 p.m.
I think that a way to prevent new (and possibly scamming) people from trading is the best bet. I think a way of rating ect. is an easy and good idea. Other than that the only thing I can think of is a system that makes a user only eligible for trading after certain criteria are met. I traded with buddy because I saw that he was a user for around 7 months. I though that was legit enough, but obviously not. From now one I'm going to be much more careful. Another idea for the traders on Tappedout is that if you are doing a big trade with a large amount of cards/value is that you split the trade into multiple parts, shipping out each part when the part before is received.
November 16, 2011 9:50 p.m.
most people wont go for that if they are trading like three to four times a week if not more. I did a trade last week that was 400 dollars plus. Worth every penny! And i have done three trades so far this week. and working on more. I am serious I will be the middle man if need be lol.
November 16, 2011 9:58 p.m.
I thought reputation was enough! I'm shocked to see someone who was around for 7 months throw that away for a few cards. Sad really, but we will not let this stop us.
So yeah, let's institute middlemen/escrow and a pending trade history. Will this be perfect? No. But it will help.
November 16, 2011 10:24 p.m.
Ok coming from someone who has been taken for a spin as well (by freaknaughty who hasn't been on for a month and never shipped cards out or responds to any contact) that shipping first is not always fair to the individual as they have no insurance that the party will ship as well or what have you, ie what seemingly is happening with buddy it is all a trust thing, if you feel that you can trust someone than do it, if not, than don't. There won't be an easy way to protect your self other than not trading (which is no fun) as for the recommendations I agree there, I put my recommendations in my binder, but requiring 5 is such an odd number, and may not be fair if you don't trade to much or what have you. To stop scammers I would think check to see when they were last active, now yes things happen and we can't all get on when we want, but in today's age if you can't get online at least a couple times in a day than it could be a clue, since there are plenty of mediums for the internet now. Maybe having a wait period of a week or so for new users before the trade binder function and trading can work for them? A go between could work, but in all honesty it probably won't work perfectly in real life as they would be needing some kind of money to pay for re shipping everything out. If the individual is willing to ship out first than great your good, if they staunchly refuse than there is a sign. Obviously look at some past comments they have posted, if there is nothing concerning a deck, or forum or Q&A, and it is all trade stuff than be weary. Just do your homework on the person, and if they have traded in the past ask that person. Sorry for a long post, wasn't quite sure what to say. lol
November 16, 2011 10:30 p.m.
it would just mean more of a delay another two to three days of wait in between. I will once again volunteer Myself as the middle man for the site if that is what is needed. I am known on the site for help with others as well as the trading community for this site.
I am a little ticked that this problem has happened. I have actually recommended this site on more than one occasion to people that i play magic with at FNM. yeaGO! and his cronies have worked diligently at making this site Bad Ass and stuff like this is a turn off to new comers! Something needs to happen so what ever decisions yeaGO! makes I am down for.
November 16, 2011 11:05 p.m.
I agree with Basuldur. I traded with buddy because he was on here for a while. I'm more pissed at myself for falling into a scam than the fact that I lost a snapcaster. I like the recommendations idea a lot. I know some of us do it already by putting great traders in our trade binders. I take that into consideration a lot, especially now. I feel really good about trades when I see other user's names in trade binders I'm looking at. There isn't going to be a perfect solution sadly. Maybe a user rating like on ebay? Maybe there is a trading form on the site. Instead of sending an e-mail when you hit the propose trade button, a form gets PMed to you. All of the cards are listed and both parties have to agree and the form stays up until both parties click that the cards were received. Your profile can state how many outstanding trades you have, and the length of time in which it has been outstanding. Also how many were successful and with whom. Or something like that.
November 16, 2011 11:08 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #27
@yeaGO! That was exactly my reaction and is what made me give him the benefit of the doubt for so long.
I know from personal experience that if I see a name that is popular on the site, I feel pretty at ease about the trade. If I see someone who has a list of traders that they've traded with in their binder I also feel a little more at ease (especially if I've traded with some of those players).
I know that there is no perfect system. Ebay can offer refunds simply because they own paypal and thus can send invoices that come directly out of there. tappedout doesn't have that luxury. I do appreciate the steps that are being taken and I believe that they will certainly help in some form to help traders on this site.
November 16, 2011 11:21 p.m.
thats not bad timmyb I think that mixed with other ideas might be the best bet even tough there is not really ever going to be a safe way.
November 16, 2011 11:31 p.m.
DARK_r3ck0n1ng says... #29
The way i see it, is trading is a risk we all take. That is how I starting this thing out. when i first started trading i just hit the forms and saw it thought it would be cool.
With that said I've been trading on this site since about a few days after I made my account. Yes, i had a few "dream"/"fake" decks I created and a few that I play since I don't own every card in Magic.
Now with trading a disclaimer is not stating about trading at your own risk till a short time ago when possible fags started to be dicks. I know from experience it takes time to send some cards out to people hell it happens with me, times are tough, and multiple trade at 1.71 (if using a bubble which everyone should use for card protection, a guide to trading would be nice to state trading rules like a super sticky for all people to follow.) can be a depleting to a persons' wallet. However, unless you get paid every 2 weeks (which some people do) it should take no less than a five-seven days to mail cards out. Also, if you ain't the cash don't do the trade duh...
Now the only thing that i could thing off would be to allow people to post images of their binder in the trade binder, this way a person can tell if he/she has the cards. And not to just put up the card but the whole binder page for page to ensure that the cards are there.
That is it for now.
November 17, 2011 3:49 a.m.
I would have to also agree on the idea of implementing a rating system for traders. It'd be like eBay, for Magic.
Just hope I don't get scammed like I have on eBay. D:
November 17, 2011 5:23 a.m.
@yeaGO! - I've just started trading on this site, and was a little sceptical at first. I didn't want to lose my cards like anyone else. But rckclimber777 did work and got me my cards, and I should be getting more in the mail today. I'm now confident enough to ship out mine today, knowing that these people aren't scamming me. (And Btw guys who haven't got your cards yet, I'm not a scammer lol, just frightened) Even though I had no recommendation or experience, they trusted me and did good to do so. I've been a member of this community for a few months now and It's just too awesome to go and ruin that for a couple cards. But anyways...
I recommend maybe doing small trades at first with someone without recommendation or if you are just sceptical. IE: My first is for like $10 worth, second $20 worth, and now it's a $60 dollar lot with metalmagic. But anyways a little at first could be done to ensure some trust and cooperation without too much of a loss in case they are scamming you.
I'm also doing what you call (escew?) Helping my friend alex get what he wants. I like this idea, but I would forwarn people not to let these other parties into your own account, as backstabbing is possible. Just communicate well with your friend and all should be good.
I have been thinking about a picture upload for a while now. It seems like a legit idea.
A trader rating plugin would be decent, as I have done my trades with only refered members.
I also think that a "trading log" type thing would be nifty. Maybe it be something like both member's post and approve the agreed upon trade, and then post on it when they get their cards.
Anyway, thank you for most of the community that is trustworthy out there, and keep it up.
(P.s the username buddy just screams of anoymous scammer. lol)
November 17, 2011 8:50 a.m.
There is a ton of good ideas. But bottom line if you dont feel comfortable. Or even if it is the first time trading with that person be hesitant. I know that there are people that are new that automatically want to start trading.
Take for instance buky92. He was wanting to trade with me and has only been a member for like a week tops at the time. I suggested that he ship first and upon arrival I would ship to him. No harm done since then I have done another trade with him and there was no hesitation since he gained my trust.
Another thing i think we all need to do. Is if you have traded with someone and the trade went well then your should say so on your binder wall. Until there is some type of scoring/rating system.
November 17, 2011 11:37 a.m.
An idea. A rating system and recent trade system.
On people's binder's they have a "recent trade" section. Sub-categories could include: Pending and Completed.
Then, once the trade is "completed", both users leave feedback on the trade.
Thoughts?
November 17, 2011 11:45 a.m.
rckclimber777 says... #34
Yea I think that seems to be the consensus right now. It seems that will give a little more confidence in trades and will also quickly point out anyone scamming others which of course will cut down on people that are scammed.
not perfect of course, but pretty good.
November 17, 2011 11:49 a.m.
I added some additional options in your binders last night. Check them out.
Still not done but its a start.
November 17, 2011 12:41 p.m.
How do you "accept a trade offer"?
Would love to put in my address if I knew how to do this beforehand.
Awesome additions so far yeaGO!.
November 17, 2011 12:52 p.m.
Why not implement a rating system like Amazon? Rate from 1-5 stars and leave feedback on how the transaction went. This information can be put on the user's trade binder or something
November 17, 2011 1:48 p.m.
I could create 10 accounts and give myself 10 5 star ratings and I'd look like an awesome trader.
November 17, 2011 2:48 p.m.
But site admin(s) like yourself would catch notice on that via IP search or something of the sort, correct?
November 17, 2011 2:49 p.m.
Basuldur What would the certain criteria be? Your last suggestion could work too, but wouldn't it be more expensive to ship them in parts?
Like most of you, I also like what rckclimber777 suggested with the rating. However if someone like me, who's never traded on this site before decides that I want to try, it would be hard to get anyone to trade with because I wouldn't have any recommendations. Which is why I also like bman5604's suggestion. It allows you to build some trust with newer people, and if I was the newer player, I wouldn't get offended having to send my part of the trade first, because I'd understand that I'd need to get that trust. But that's just how I'd see it if I was to trade, at this point, I don't think I will cause I'm inconveniently far away, and don't have many cards left spare that people would want haha
November 17, 2011 3:50 p.m.
Oh there's a second page =S my bad.
But like in terms of the rating system suggested here, couldn't you see who's rating them and what not? So if you're really paranoid about their rating system, you could look at who they've trade with, see if there's any names you think you can trust and decide from there. I mean again, from the short time I've been on this site so far, I see a lot of names that pop up, with advice on trades, decks, etc, and seem like very respectable and decent people that I'd probably trust. So creating 10 fake accounts and rating yourself highly might not look as good if the trader like researches a bit more. It would involve the scammer building lots of trust with lots of people over a very long time, and most (if not hopefully, all) would think it's a waste of time
November 17, 2011 3:57 p.m.
RiotMaker -- IPs can be changed or people can use different locations.
As for trade history -- check out the new 'vouch' option--its basically the same thing. People can vouch for other people on the site. Scammers could make up fake trades with each other and accomplish the same thing.
November 17, 2011 4:30 p.m.
looks good. Lets see how long it takes for someone to get screwed over again.
November 17, 2011 6:33 p.m.
MasterFlinter says... #46
Was the trade forum up and running 7 months ago? If not, he clearly did not come here with the intent to scam, and even if it was that is a long time before getting a payoff for his efforts. I would not be surprised if buddy did not come to tappedout for the purpose of scamming people, but jumped on the opportunity when he saw how lax we were in preventing it. No measures will deter the dedicated scammers, but opportunists like I believe buddy may have been can be turned away easily by using the rep system I see yeago has implemented, and that is the most important step.
Yeago - would it be possible for the site admins to keep a private DB of addresses for known scammers? It's a lot harder to change an address than an ip. A person could get a P.O. box but that is far more than the average scammer is probably going to do.
November 17, 2011 10:52 p.m.
I've followed this debate for a while now, and have concluded that there is no absolute way to stop scammers. (especially with yeaGO! telling them the tricks to do it. lol, jk.) I don't think there is any foolproof website adjustment that could stop them. All I can say is just be cautious, cooperative, and respectful. Using the recommendation system is probably the safest bet. And a way you could check if someone is boosting their ratings and recommendations with fake accounts, just check if the recommendations are coming from a majority of non-upgraded accounts. I doubt a scammer wants to pay to upgrade all of them.
November 18, 2011 8:39 a.m.
jacehoffman11 says... #48
as a new member of the site seeing this worries me, but as it looks to be the only incident it gives me hope in the community as well.
November 20, 2011 8:41 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #49
@ jacehoffman11 Don't worry most of the people here are very responsible and look only to help others not scam others. It is certainly a concern at times, but most people are very good at being honest about trades. I've traded a lot on this site and have only had one problem. Just be careful as you trade. As a new player to the site you may want to trade with those who are most active. Anyway welcome to the site!
November 20, 2011 8:54 p.m.
While what Miasma says is true not all members here (myself included) have an upgraded account, I don't see a need for it especially if I am to busy working to get online, just check to see if the recommendations are from actual long time or active users that's all it takes. If all you look for are upgraded accounts as your insurance than you better not be sad if you get scammed, just do your homework and if you have a bad feeling don't do it, simple as that. Coz that's what it always boiled down to, while I love the vouch option, I also recommend traders in my binder as well (would be nice to get vouched etc as well lol) the more a persons name shows up around here than it is more than likely a safe bet
yeaGO says... #2
Another thought is that Trading requires you use Facebook Connect anonimity becomes harder. I mean, if you really intend to trade with someone you are already going to get their name and address, so why not have that available ahead of time? Of course, some of you don't have FB connect. Ideas!
November 16, 2011 6:53 p.m.