The State of the Community
TappedOut forum
Posted on April 1, 2015, 12:33 a.m. by CanadianShinobi
Tapped Out Community I think we need to talk; and by we I mean all of us, together.
I don't know if I have a right to do this and I don't want to step on anyone's toes too much, but someone needs to say something. Because, as far as I can tell, and as far as many of the people I talk to on here can tell, the Community isn't doing so great. I would even hazard to say that the Community is doing rather poorly.
I've been on Tapped Out for nearly two years now. And for the majority of my time it has been a fantastic place to be. Tapped Out has introduced me to a number of great people and has generally made me a much better Magic player. Even before I joined the site and was looking into Magic I browsed the site for deck ideas. But recently, Tapped Out hasn't been so great. There's been a substantial amount negativity and I will be the first to admit that I have done my fair share of contributing to that negativity.
I can't say for certain when it started, but I first picked up on it back when the Ban lists were announced in January. I'm not saying that's the root cause, but it did polarize the Community. I know I was pissed off and maybe we haven't gotten that anger and vitriol out of our systems. But we have to. Because one of the best aspects of this Community is that it isn't policed by Moderators as some sites are. And it shouldn't have to be. I see the Moderators as something of a last resort and even then I hesitate to bother them because they're players and people just like everyone else.
I don't know what needs fixing, but I know something needs fixing. And a lot of people know that. This isn't the Community I decided to join, because that Community was fun and compelled discussion. I don't know what made us all bitter and ready to insult someone instead of assisting them, but it needs to stop. Because it just isn't fucking healthy. I don't have a solution. I don't even have a suggestion for a solution, but I'm hoping we can pull together and think of something.
Thanks T/O. Now let's talk.
Arigato gozaimus
vampirelazarus says... #2
"FUCK ERRY THING" is actually the MOTD for my Corporation in EVE at the moment.
April 1, 2015 2:10 a.m.
it was the WHO ARE YOU part that got me. I always feel like that is an aggro phase. its demeaning. but fair enough.
I just have my pitchfork up and ready and I am trying to burn everything down.
April 1, 2015 2:12 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #4
I'm not saying that our community isn't at the main fault here, but I'm also saying to be aware that some of this negativity does come from how WotC's has been handling things lately. We have to keep both sides in vision as we go about our methods to fix things. I say yes, definitely keep the main focus on fixing our community as the problem stems from the community, but also realize that as time goes by that if WotC and company keeps producing the same quality of work in the future as they have now, that the negativity stemming from WotC itself will be larger and unmanageable.
Also, TurboFagoot, I'll go find the article for you, but basically I say this because WotC is TERRIBLE at managing their company. Personal accounts from employees state this, and WotC gets a rating of 2.5/5. Which is dismal. But once again, I'll find the article for you.
April 1, 2015 2:13 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #5
Reasonable. However, I feel it's just as belligerent, if not more, to call a company unprofessional and the source of a community's ills.
April 1, 2015 2:14 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #6
April 1, 2015 2:16 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #7
We're not discussing WotC's ability to manage internal affairs, we're discussing the decisions they make that affect the public. If WotC treats its employees terribly, or runs a terrible ship as far as efficiency is concerned, it doesn't actually matter when considering the product they ship out or the impact of the decisions they make. Those things exist independently of the source once they're out in the world.
The decision to ban Pod has the same effect on the metagame and community whether or not WotC is well managed.
If you want to say WotC is unprofessional based on how they run their office, sure. If you want to say they're unprofessional because they decided to ban your favorite card then that's pretty silly. Your original comment hinted toward the latter, hence my response.
April 1, 2015 2:18 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #8
Terrible at managing their employees ... not company.
April 1, 2015 2:19 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #9
I'll post a response to that on your profile TurboFagoot, as it derails from this thread too much.
April 1, 2015 2:36 a.m.
As someone who's been here for almost 5 years, I feel as though I should weigh in on this matter.
I essentially stopped posting here right around the end of 2014 because I felt like I wasn't getting anything and nobody was picking up what I was leaving; it no longer felt like a community. With so many people being close-minded about their decks and card choices and opinions, it became impossible to run a thread more than 10 posts and not have a troll-off commence. That was ridiculous, even by my low standards. Everybody became caustic and defensive because they had to be, or ran the risk of getting chewed out and butt-hurt. Then, because everyone was caustic and defensive, they got butt-hurt anyway.
I'm not pretending to know the exact state of TappedOut's community as I've only popped in a handful of times since December, but those few moments were fairy negative. I take some amount of blame upon myself for having not put on any community events since last summer or written new articles to bind the community together... My Pauper Challenges always garnered a ton of positivity and compliments from many players to others. In fact, I can't recall one instance where somebody became genuinely upset because of a community event I led. If we need to rebuild the sense of community, that would be a good place to start.
Beyond that, moar in-person events! I know there's the "Meets" thing, but I mean tournaments and functions! Maybe some of our regulars could do versus videos or something. I think many users here need to realize and be reminded of the fact that there are faces to the people on this site.
If there's anything I can do or if someone has an idea, keep me posted on it. I've put a ton of time, effort, and thought into this community and it pains me to see it degenerate into a Detroit Pistons Championship-esque riot at times.
April 1, 2015 2:43 a.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #11
I wish we had it back to the way it used to be. Before zandl stopped doing articles and Behgz was still a respected member. Back when KrazyCaley would do Daily Draft Debates and play with his Bolas deck. Obviously times and situations change, but that was what kept bringing me back and keeping me active.
One theme to those things I mentioned were that they were mostly Standard related. As tappedout has shifted more toward modern, I've noticed that people have become very much more opinionated. I don't think I have an argument thought out well enough to explain why this is, nor do I think this is the thread to post it in. But what I have found is this: When it comes to Modern, there are those who stand firm on what the pros say and play (or possibly what they say and play because they think themselves an expert), and there are those who think they're smarter than the pros. We end up with a clash of the two, and both sides have their validity. Pros clearly know what they're doing. But that doesn't mean new decks can't come out. Just look at the Doran deck from a few months ago. BUT people can't go in with a closed mind thinking they can "break the meta" simply because they say it is so. There needs to be a flexibility in the Modern community in order to keep it healthy. Neither is wrong. So let the dreamers dream and let the netdeckers netdeck. You know the best way to make a thread you don't like go away? Ignore it. There is no worse feeling than to say something and receive neither positive nor negative feedback
April 1, 2015 3:21 a.m.
zandl, that is the most constructive comment so far, including an actual suggestion! And reminded me to get on with my own challenge...
I have just read everything everyone has to say, and knowing where this started from, I do now realize the scale of the issue.
I will try to bring some suggestions for actions that can be done, but I have nothing so far. Until I think of something, here are my two cents on what has been said so far:
the amount of moderation is perfectly fine now - if moderation is not noticed, that is the best kind, and I have not noticed any crackdowns by mods.
Providing tutorials that are not mandatory means they will be skipped and forcing more tutorials to users will serve no purpose. For example, for most users, if they post in the General forum with a rules question, and the thread is moved and the user is in the know about why it was moved, then there is no longer a problem with that regarding where to ask questions (at least with that users).
In general, something being unexplained is only a problem once.
Community-wide events like challenges are what bring out the best in the community. Threads lacking in purpose are what is toxic. Even the most recent examples of toxic threads, there have been shining gems of exemplary articulated interactions.
The T/O community is growing and and attracting new members. That is superb and does pose the questions for me: should anything actually change? Doesn't being part of the community require taking some time and learning its ways?
And I say it does. Any radical change in direction for the community will not result in reducing the time necessary to get used to the culture of community. In fact, it may act the opposite way and alienate people who are regulars/long-time contributors.
Toxic threads, shitposting, counterproductiveness will increase as occurrences as the site grows. AS long the community's culture is continuing to be nurturing towards meaningful, productive, argumentative discussion, this will trickle down to every user who is a part of the community for a certain amount of time.
In summary of the whole post, toxic stuff will continue to occur and occur more often as the site grows. Most of those toxic members will detoxify (is that even a word?) with time and that is an unavoidable part of the nature of ANY community.
April 1, 2015 3:22 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
Regarding what Boza said in bullet 2/4, it would be ideal to find a way to educate users on where to post any given thread. I've discussed with yeaGO the possibility of centralizing the new thread system. Users would be asked a basic question or two to help determine whether the thread should be created in the Q&A, in Deck Help, or in the other forums. The user would then be able to manually select a forum. Theoretically, this should at least help clean up the misposts between the Q&A and the forums and between Deck Help and the format forums.
I don't mind moving the thread and informing the user where and why the thread was moved, provided that user learns from the experience, but I don't really like having to go through the process so frequently. There's obviously a disconnect between the way users use the site and the way the site is intended to be used, and we can't really be certain whether it's due to laziness or ignorance.
April 1, 2015 3:40 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #14
Someone said on page 1 (I think it was Femme) that we should have a separate thread for debates.
This is really simple to do. In fact, I might just make one now.
April 1, 2015 5:07 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #15
I've created a thread where you can talk about serious stuff, like if an important societal issue arises, or you just want to rant. But keep it clean, respectful, and well handled.
April 1, 2015 5:12 a.m.
I think this is a really healthy discussion about the problems we face and what to do about it. I've read almost all the posts and what I'm hearing from the community is that generally things are fine but occasionally feedback is poorly received. I hear a lot of people referencing the modern forums here, and I also hear criticism towards threads with a lack of direction. Equally though, on the positive side, I think you're all saying that we don't go overboard with the moderating side of things.
I definitely agree that recently things have been problematic, but I personally have found a lot of positive experiences recently. The Modern Formtat Primer was received well. The Modern League I organised has been doing well. A lot of the threads I've posted have been ok. From my point of view, there ARE problems but they're not everywhere. If I'm totally honest I feel like for the last few days we've all been focusing so hard on the problems we've made everything seem massively bad when really it is just a few isolated threads. Am I correct, or am I wrong?
I don't get the impression that the site as a whole is toxic. I get the impression that a few threads turned toxic, which is obviously a smaller problem.
If I were to posit a solution, I would echo comments above:
- We have a strong community that enjoys new content. Let's give it to them. Discussions turn nasty but things like tournaments and articles rarely do. Let's give people an outlet for their frustration. Have a problem with me? Crush me 2-0 in a best of 3 match. Let's bring people together with events and articles.
April 1, 2015 6:52 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #17
Well, this is fabulous CanadianShinobi. But I think that there's one big problem, and that's that 95% of the community is completely oblivious to this. Not to this post, but to the site's negativity in general. Either they don't see it, they are part of it, or they don't care because to them this is a deck building site and that is all. Which is partially true, after all.
And if no one else has, I would like to be the second to apologize for my behavior that affected the community negatively.
April 1, 2015 7:51 a.m.
I agree that there is definitely a problem, but I'm not entirely too sure how to solve it. Most things that we could do (report button, comment upvoting, etc.) would just increase the negativity that's been going around. I think the best we can do is to ignore it. Ignore all the trolls, all the hate-commenters, and just do what you think is the right thing to do. Like Boza mentioned above, soon they'll probably stop, and we'll have a happy T/O again.
On the state of the Deck Help forum: It's gone to shit. There's currently a thread where you can advertise your deck, but I haven't seen too many people use it. Mostly, we're just bombarded with separate threads that just post the deck and not many guidelines for suggestions. Deck Help IS NOT Deckcycle. Decks should not be advertised in that forum, except for maybe the one thread that does all the advertising.
April 1, 2015 8:01 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #19
That's very interesting that you'd say that 6tennis, we used to HATE the advertise your deck thread and the few other clones that appeared with it. It's an ancient thread. But yeah, we foresaw that the deck help will just be used as a place to deck cycle once the site became more populated, since, you know, deck cycles would all but lose their purpose when more and more people come on the site.
April 1, 2015 8:08 a.m.
I haven't really immersed myself in the community, so I don't know if what I say will really be of much help or relevance. But I was thinking, what if there's a method to encourage polite and courteous behavior, like a positive reinforcement of some sort? I'm just not sure how that could be implemented.
April 1, 2015 8:34 a.m.
I felt the need to comment on this. It's the kind of thing I'm talking about, where the deck will be there without any guidelines for feedback. Is there any way I could've handled this differently?
April 1, 2015 9:34 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #24
On the subject of tutorials and post quality
A well-constructed tutorial can teach a person about a process and how to perform it. It can't fix stupid, and it can't stop shitposting. If you want to enforce some higher standard on the overall quality and tone of posts on the site then publish a Code of Conduct and/or Quality Standards (in a way that users will actually be aware of) and start infracting/banning people. If you want Tapped Out to be a walled garden, then build a wall.
On the subject of community issues
I haven't had a truly "negative" experience on this site in quite a while. I think there are 2 main factors driving this:
- How I choose to involve myself - My activity is limited to updating my decks, reading recent Q&A threads, skimming the top level of the Forums, and reading anything from there that stands out to me. Any conversation threads that seem uninteresting, stupid, or run by stupid people are just passed over. If a conversation I was already involved in gets uninteresting or stupid then I tie up any loose thoughts and head out. Most of the time when these things happen I don't even count it as "negative", because of the other main factor.
- My expectations for community interactions - I have a weird relationship with the internet. I spend a ton of time screwing around on it each day, and I agree that it's an amazing and world-changing tool for education, communication, commerce, and all that good stuff. However, I also know that it's the most miserable swamp full of idiots, malcontents, and barnyard animals that a person will ever have the misfortune to fall into. This will never change. When stupid stuff happens around here, I know it's simply just because I'm on the internet. It's no big deal, neither disappointing nor surprising.
How much of the userbase is affected by the issues discussed elsewhere in this thread is also an open question for me. I think I read less than a page of posts in a "Just Chatting" thread soon after the first one was put up. It didn't look like something I'd be interested in so I let it go. Like any other online community, Tapped Out is segmented into many different classes of user, from the highly involved power users and moderation team, to the format-specific commenters and conversationalists, to those who use the site as a decklist repository and don't do any other reading or writing. Are the problems being discussed here "Community Issues" or "forum drama specific to a small group of users"? I really don't know the answer to that question, because I haven't read any of the material involved.
Because of my comparative lack of knowledge and involvement in the matter, should I even be posting in this thread? I have no clue on that one, but if the alternative perspective helps one other person then it was probably worthwhile.
April 1, 2015 11:14 a.m.
grumbledore says... #25
I think that the majority of the most active users in the site are on this thread or the just chatting one. They're the most active because they are generally the most knowledgeable. People that post for any length of time quickly figure out these names and look to them for feedback. So in light of that, it seems pretty obvious to me: don't respond to shitposting. Lead by example. If those people who are trolling are serious and want feedback, they're going to quickly realize that there are more effective ways to do it if they aren't getting responses.
Parts of this debate remind me of shit you see as a parent where various groups lobby entertainment industries trying to get them to essentially censor their content so that its 'safe' for their children. Really, the solution there is to be cognizant of what your kids are watching and not use the television as a godamn babysitter. I see several parallels between that mentality and the idea of having threads moderated for shitposting.
/endrant
April 1, 2015 11:27 a.m.
scrotality I see your point. Fun fact: Most trolls are just looking for attention. If they don't get attention, then they won't troll anymore. At least, from my experience, that's what's happened to me.
On a side note: I wrote this. Everyone agree with all the points I made?
April 1, 2015 12:08 p.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #27
I'm relatively new to using T/O although I personally have not noticed any major issues with rude posting in the deck lists usually just constructive suggestions/ critiques along with compliments on interesting deck ideas, the forums do seem to sometimes get a little heated and diverge from the original topic sometimes into rude posting all though it seems more like drama mostly centered around certain forums. Overall T/O seems to be functioning great, as a useful tool for deck building, and net decking, the forums might have some rude postings but it is the internet these things happen especially as the number of members using T\O increase, if some of the issues are things like heated tempers over things such as the January ban lists or over certain user posts I think that will sort itself out given time when tempers have cooled down or when people start to avoid the discussions created by users they don't like.
April 1, 2015 12:14 p.m.
Rhadamanthus hit the nail on the head, I think. Back when I cared and was bored, I always knew I could stir the pot and get a shitstorm started. If my attitude going into a thread was "find something wrong and point it out," then the thread turned toxic. If I went in with the intention of being constructive, things stayed on track. I also know there are users I simply will never see eye to eye with, so I avoid threads with them or, in the very least, avoiding speaking directly to them.
How you go about using this site and having those little boundaries for yourself would make a huge difference. This fact goes to support the need to put a face to the user here through videos and in-person events.
April 1, 2015 12:49 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #29
OtakulordAndrew illustrates some of the main problems about "this" (and by this I mean this general rant/anger/people leaving bs). T/O is first and foremost a site for building, drafting, and discussing MTG. You guys have to remember that. People asking dumb questions and advertising like crazy might anger you (and me), but that's the purpose of this site. Those people have nowhere else to ask these questions. Now I'm all for the social side of it, but we just have to keep in mind the principle function of Tapped Out.
Now, how about we start discussing solutions instead of everyone saying the site has gotten worse, which does absolutely nothing?
April 1, 2015 12:50 p.m.
zandl's point I think is particularly relevant to absolutely everyone. There are hundreds of users you'll see regularly but you just can't like or agree with all of them.
Avoid threads with those people. Avoid speaking to them 1-to-1. Know when to leave threads. Prevent yourself from getting too worked up.
Those 'little boundaries' that he talks about are really, really important.
One of the solutions to this problem is for people to work on those boundaries.
April 1, 2015 12:57 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #32
I have similar sentiments to Rhadamanthus and zandl on this issue.
Now I'm not sure if I'm supposed to do this or if this is the proper place but zandl are you interested in burying the hatchet? When I look back at our spats they're just plain old silly. I've chilled out quite a bit and it seems like you have too. I'm sorry for my part in all of it. I wanted to congratulate you on taking down an IQ as well. If you choose to ignore this that's a-okay, just know I'm over it and open to positive interactions in future.
April 1, 2015 1:26 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #33
So ChiefBell are we just not supposed to answer forum questions? Because we are, I would think, be the most knowledgeable people here when it comes to MTG. It would be quite the waste...
April 1, 2015 1:35 p.m.
If you don't feel like you can control how you behave towards a certain user then no. If you have no problems with what's going on then sure. If you feel yourself getting annoyed stop and leave.
It's not difficult.
April 1, 2015 1:40 p.m.
Essentially being absent for nearly 5 months now has made all of my past quarrels seem superfluous. I'll bury the hatchet wherever and whenever I can.
And thanks. :D
April 1, 2015 3:06 p.m.
I don't know if we could get everyone to sign the creed.... but maybe we could make it a requirement for decklords before being allowed to change their title :P
i think its enough if the community is peppered with upstanding advocates who can consistently handle situations and do their Utmost Darndest not to run aground of the rules, even when they're super annoyed.
April 1, 2015 5:23 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #38
So let's make this place a better place guys. I appologize to anyone who feels that i have been cruel or rude to in the past.
I, as a regular will do my part to try and make this a fun and productive place for non regulars and regulars alike. Remember to relax and spread the positivity you want to see.
April 1, 2015 5:41 p.m.
I apologize for being an ass on more occasions than not and I promise not to be on TappedOut when I'm bored and in a poor mood.
April 1, 2015 5:56 p.m.
if so I still think "the Creed" would be a good idea. when people are reminded of their actions before they DO them it makes things happen in a better manner. Not always. but more so than when they arent reminded
April 1, 2015 6:08 p.m.
I know I don't actively post on the site a whole lot, but I actually do browse quite a bit, and I read the vast majority of what goes on, so I feel like it might be worth it to throw my 2 cents in. I don't mean to call anyone out at all, and I apologize in advance if it comes off that way.
I think part of the conflict lately stems from a divide between established regular users, and the influx of newer people. One of the great things I've noticed with threads like "Just Chatting" is that it brings users together and creates more of a bond. The flip side to that, however, is that not all users participate in that experience.
Consequently, something I've been observing recently is that an established user will have some issue with a less common user, and many of the established user friends will jump onboard as well. In regards to the whole IM thing, for example, I noticed a number of users mocking him in the JC thread and other places. What they may forget, however, is that he (and the rest of us) can see that. And that's not a good way to make newer users feel welcome in the circle, so to speak.
I've also noticed this phenomenon when pertaining to drama that starts on individual users' walls. It can also happen when someone goes to Epoch or somebody else to try to get a problem solved. To me, it seems like a great solution would be a private message feature on the site. That way, if 2 users are having problems, they can deal with it themselves without dragging the rest of the community into it, and sparking more drama.
Now obviously the mods would be able to see these messages, and could get involved to avoid bullying and that sort of thing. But I think having a medium to speak to other users that wouldn't be as public, and wouldn't show up on the front page "recent activity" and places like that, would cut down significantly on the amount of drama.
There are other observations I could make, especially in regards to the modern forums and modern players' activity, but at the risk of being too long winded, I'll save that for a separate time. I really do enjoy being a part of this community (even though I'm not especially active in it) and so far, most of the people I've interacted have been great. I'd like to see a way to continue that positive interaction, and maybe keep some of the negative interactions confined to being between individual users, and not the community as a whole.
April 1, 2015 6:58 p.m.
for what it is worth the Mr IM is still going around the site and either bothering people are claiming we knows about "off the books" R&D for MTG.
le sigh
April 3, 2015 6:35 p.m.
I may have brought this up before, but the lack of a swear filter here really lends to the anarchist/wild west feel to the conversations that happen here. Shoot first or get shot.
A swear filter goes a long way in subconsciously keeping posters more aware of there posts. I'm not gonna debate which ones or why, just the top 5-10 words most commonly associated with vulgarity.
Whatever you might think your gaining by not having a swear filter, is actually a contributing factor to the issues being addressed in this thread.
Really, if you want to encourage a positive environment around here, a lack of a swear filter is doing you no favors.
April 7, 2015 11:36 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #45
Swear filter is a good idea. Sometimes I look back at my previous posts and notice all the swears ...
April 8, 2015 4:28 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #47
A certain special user has been alluded to in several posts here, brought up as an example of one of the problems. If you can read this stupid thread without your brain catching on fire, I want you to think about something that to me seems wildly obvious: either this user has no idea what he's doing and is so closed-minded as to be unteachable, or this user knows exactly what he's doing and is having the time of his life tying everyone up in knots. Why are so many users, including some regarded as "pillars" of the community, wasting their time even talking to this asshole? Is the drive to correct someone who's "wrong, on the INTERNET" so strong that you can't even see you're involving yourself in the dumbest fucking conversation imaginable?
April 8, 2015 11:23 a.m.
Because he's not necessarily an asshole. Someone who's completely clueless isn't a bad person. To me, he never came across as someone unpleasant, just someone misguided. You assume that he's actively bad. I just assumely that he's very, very poor at the game.
April 8, 2015 11:26 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #49
Like I said, I only see 2 possibilities: he's either actively bad or massively stupid and stubborn. I don't assume either one, but whichever one is the truth I can't comprehend how anyone could think that interacting with him is a good idea.
April 8, 2015 11:30 a.m.
Well, I enjoy spending time explaining to people why certain things work and why certain things don't. I do it for my job as well haha, so there is that. For me, it's not a bad idea because I rarely lose my temper with people. I enjoy teaching people even if it takes me ages. There's no negative fallout on me if the other party doesn't get it. Given that, I'm up for it. Even if he's trolling and wasting my time, I'm still not going to get mad. It just doesn't matter. It's like water off a ducks back.
TurboFagoot says... #1
My response was perfectly civil.
Unless you're referring to the "fuck everything", but that's just joking frustration with my own error than hostility towards another user.
April 1, 2015 2:08 a.m.