Trade Overhaul Coming Soon
TappedOut forum
Posted on May 18, 2014, 6:48 p.m. by yeaGO
Request for opinions and comments
Hello all, Firstly, please take care to keep your responses as brief as possible succinct. If possible use list format and also take extra care to read the full discussion before you comment.
Current problems
1) comments on trade binders are a mess
2) private email exchanges are prone to scammers
3) the current trade system is sparse, doesn't keep a good history and people don't use it
4) vouches aren't connected to trades
Proposed changes
1) Using the "Initiate Trade" button creates a private chat lobby between you and the other person. You can both take your time to fill out your offers before finalizing. The comments don't show up on your profile or on the comment stream.
2) When a trade is initiated, the content and parties of that trade becomes public to all (but not the negotiation chat that's between the two parties)
3) Current vouching system will go away and be replaced with a list of successful trades.
4) Language will change in order to discouraged use private email and instead keep discussion to the private trade chat lobby.
5) A new trade hub will be created that shows recently updated binders and allows people to feature their binder
6) Potentially make trades cost a feature token or Upgraded Users only. I know, I know, nobody wants to pay anything but this covers the cost of the great efforts we are going to to prevent scammers.
Didgeridooda says... #2
yeaGO! I use the address box in the edit trade binder to keep track of what I traded, and any additional info I need to remember about the trades. Needs to pack better, tough communication, don't trade with again. Just notes that might help me remember things for future trades.
May 19, 2014 2:56 a.m.
I'm having a huge problem with my binder and this whole upgrade thing.I don't, really. Good job. :D
May 19, 2014 3:03 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
Couple points (I'm late to the discussion, but did read as much as possible):
- Show/hide option for "successful trades" and "last update." While I like the option to view this info, I don't like that it devours space and inflates page length. A simple show/hide option for those sections would allow users to see them if they were interested in the information, but keep them hidden by default for a neater, shorter presentation.
- Comments on trade rating option. MTGS uses an iTrader rating much like eBay or TCGplayer seller feedback. The upside is that it gives a concise indication of a trader's general quality. The downside is that it creates the need for a lot of top-down regulation. There would be a need for an appeals system because your trade rating is now an all-important indication of your status and integrity, and users of any trading site get very defensive about their ratings. We'd therefore have to have an entire process and team to review appeals.
- Comments on initiated/pending/completed trades. I like the idea of being able to cancel trades in progress. If this is now possible, I must have missed it in the comments thus far. There have been a few trades that I've had to cancel because the other user vanished or because the cards I received were not the ones I agreed to receive. Adding notes to trade resolutions would help clarify why particular trades went the way they went. Notes would also be helpful in clarifying trader ratings (see above point).
- Comments on the upgrade/pay-to-trade discussion. While I understand the concerns that non-upgraded users have about "paying to trade," I'd like to clarify a few things.
- First, I wholly agree with yeaGO! about the site's function. We are, first and foremost, a deckbuilding interface and community forum. Trading is a privilege that we extend to users on the basis that it improves their experience as functioning members of that community.
- The cost of an upgrade is actually pretty low. $5? People pay up to eight times that amount to enter an event. It's barely more than the cost of a pack. Hell, people get taxed more than that on an average shopping trip. I don't think it's an unjustifiable inconvenience to ask that people make a small contribution to improve the site and their experience at the same time. Making trading an upgrade-specific privilege would also further discourage scammers.
- That said, I don't like the idea of charging a token or fee per trade. The best I could see this working is if we had a separate pool of "trade tokens" that were allotted based on good card suggestions, Q&A answers, or card fixes, but we'd then need to further complicate the trading system by involving another form of currency (the first two being cards and money) that users need to account for when thinking about trades.
- Comments on trade chat. I'm still a little confused as to how this one would work. Would we be storing trade chats for admin review? Would they only exist until the trade is accepted/canceled?
May 19, 2014 4:40 a.m.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but when I view trades, any card with a comma in it's name shows up as 2 separate cards that are both unknown. For example Sorin, Lord of Innistrad shows up as:
Unknown (2):
Sorin
Lord of Innistrad
May 19, 2014 5:11 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #6
I'm liking the changes to the system so far, yeaGO! I support Epoch's first through fourth points. Regarding the trading system, I think having an upgraded account being required is the most efficient method.
On another note, here are two things I noticed when I just went to my trade binder. I received the following error message (no space between the double brackets on the left, put that there so it would show up):
Errors
Printings not found for cards: Mountain [ [zen], Swamp [ [zen]
Regarding the first one: my Zen lands do not have the second bracket in front of them, and read "#x Mountain [ZEN]." Am I correct, or no?
May 19, 2014 10:31 a.m.
I still don't think it's a great idea to make trading exclusive to upgraded users. I've already had one user back out from a nearly successful trade and tell me he's taking his cards to another website where he can trade for free. There are plenty of un-upgraded users who are full-fledged traders on this site and have plenty of people vouching for them. Forcing people to pay money to trade when they could simply go elsewhere will drive them away from T/O - and it evidently already is.
Was the system really that bad before? I know people have been scammed before, but those people didn't take the necessary precautions (like having newbie accounts send cards first, purchasing tracking/delivery confirmation, etc.).
I'm not critiquing all the changes you've made and it does look a lot better and easier to use. I just feel like this new "upgraded users only" thing (unless there's something I'm missing) is trivial when, if done right, you were extremely unlikely to get scammed.
May 19, 2014 10:54 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #8
I just noticed the changes. They are nice, but I want to warn you about the only upgraded user trade option. Trading will become stagnate here, and that will hurt the overall function of the site as people will be less active. Then there will be no one to trade with because it will be a small list of people able to trade. I would see trading as a way to bring people in to upgrading. Of all the trading sites (which I know this is not) they do not "charge" to trade.
I think if you need money to support the site outside of current methods, get that shop going. I think that would do far more then upgrading a couple of users.
May 19, 2014 12:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
I think it's worth having a serious conversation about the significance of users leaving/refusing to trade.
We're still primarily a deck and discussion oriented community. Trading is an extra function that we facilitate, and we like to facilitate it for "real" users. This doesn't necessarily mean that trading needs to be an exclusive right for paying members only, but we've had problems with open trading in the past, and we also don't want this to be some place anyone can go to trade. That's why we implemented to waiting period for binder publication. The decision reflects the idea that trading is an added bonus, not a primary feature or right.
Probably the most convincing argument against an upgrade-only system is Didgeridooda's point that if the trading community shrinks, it becomes less valuable to all active traders. The larger the trade community, the more opportunities and possibilities there are for any given member.
We should therefore try to anticipate how adversely the new system affects those trade opportunities. While I am still of the mind that trading is certainly not the site's primary function, I do see the value in putting fewer restrictions on trades. Perhaps it's fairer to ask what would be beneficial to the most users, within certain reasonable bounds, rather than why people are unwilling to pay $5 to gain access to certain site features.
May 19, 2014 1:23 p.m.
We'll have to see =) I already bar people from starting a binder for 30 days. They don't leave in that time. Also, upgraders can still initiate for those un-upgraded people who are just so passionate about not upgrading.
You cough up 5 bucks and you have access to one of the nicest most reliable trading sites on the internet. Sorry you don't think that's a deal.... obviously you weren't very good with numbers to begin with.
May 19, 2014 2:06 p.m.
No reason to be aggressive about it. I don't want to force people to cough up 5 measly dollars.
May 19, 2014 2:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
Well, trade decks are explicitly and solely designed to get around existing binder rules. From an administrative perspective, we shouldn't be allowing them at all. It's not really even about the upgrade at that point.
May 19, 2014 2:11 p.m.
I would just like to say, that the text on my binder is still larger than the text on the rest of the site. Is that something that is still changing, or is it permanent? Because it looks a little weird when you go from, say, your wall to your binder, and go from font size 12 to something like 14. Maybe I'm just a little OCD, but I definitely notice it, and it looks weird.
May 19, 2014 2:15 p.m.
No, the text/links to all of the cards. That whole section looks like its been blown up in size.
May 19, 2014 2:46 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #17
I was working on a way to do it. I have never used paypal or anything, and just have not found a way to get money on the internet to upgrade.
No this site is not a trading site. It has a very reliable base that draws many people in, and keeps them very active.
Is this a money thing? If so that is ok. You are providing a service. Having the fee be a one time thing makes it very cheap, and affordable, but extremely limited sustainability. Yearly fee maybe?
Open the store?
There are already a bunch of ads I am not sure how many more there could be, and keep it functioning well.
What about a yearly or monthly donation thing like Wiki does? There are many things to help the site financially.
---Some upgraded user ideas.
Chat Room, only for upgraded users.
Trading priority listing. When you go to the card (under the haves, and wants) it lists upgraded users, then you would have to click a little expand box to see the un-upgraded users who have, and want the cards. Instead of them being all mixed up like they are now. Just a little change that could make a big difference.
Forum priority. Non upgraded user's threads drop down quicker then upgraded users.
I am trying to figure out if you are in need of money. Or if you are just feeling like people are taking advantage of what this site has to offer, and not contributing to all the work you put in.
May 19, 2014 3:05 p.m.
I would have no problem with you needing to be an upgraded user to trade and it being left at that. I tried to start trading however my first experience didn't go well. The cards I received were not in the best condition (the foil looked like it had water damage) and he claimed I never sent him his cards...well they went in the mail and I never got them back after they have been "returned to sender" twice costing me stupid postage so I have an open trade forever in my trade binder. Ended up removing the trade binder since I couldn't get ppl to trade with me after that.
No system will be perfect however I like most of the ideas and support the one time fee for a good system. This website is already hands down the best deck building site and it cost nothing. Honestly this is the best site out there and it isn't the best because it is free it is the best because of it in depth deck making and quality infrastructure.
The fact it is free is not some right people have and it isn't even a privilege, it is a favor from the creators.
I personally dont think it would be a huge loss to see some leave. As with most things online when you stop making it free the shady stuff largely dissapears and the "rabble" as I call them tend to go elsewhere. The base may get smaller but I don't honeslty think the quality will go down at all if someone will only do something for the price of free they aren't really that dedicated
May 19, 2014 3:08 p.m.
Something I would like is a more in depth subscriber option list. Like choosing to only auto sub to decks instead of a all or none deal
May 19, 2014 3:13 p.m.
While I can see why you would want to keep trading to upgraded users only, I see a few problems with it. While $5 isn't very much, a lot of people (that I know anyways) don't have bank accounts, and can't buy stuff online, so they wouldn't be able to upgrade even if they didn't mind paying $5. Another is that paying a feature token per trade would just be ridiculous, unless you implement a free way to get them, or give you like 10 per $5. Lastly, a lot of people wont upgrade, for whatever reason they have, and that will significantly decrease the amount of traders on the site, leaving people who did upgrade with a lot less people to trade with, which will discourage trading for everyone.
May 19, 2014 3:18 p.m.
I see no option to indicate that you received your end of the trade ATM.
May 19, 2014 7:38 p.m.
Wolfninja there's a received checkbox on the trade
Maybe I will restrict it to unupgraded users can't trade with each other but they can still trade with upgraded users. /shrug
May 19, 2014 9:03 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #25
I like the new system so far. still adjusting to it, but it is nice. I like the new restrictions to non upgraded users. I feel like there should be more benefits to the contributors. I also feel like there should be more options for donation available. for example, maybe there is a way to set up a monthly or yearly payment to have access to some other functions around the site. Not too sure what, yet, but that would at least give you guys a bit more money to keep improving.
May 19, 2014 11:30 p.m.
Unless there's some other place, that I can't find, where I click "Received trade".
May 20, 2014 2:43 a.m.
I really like the idea of not letting two unupgraded users trade but allowing an unupgraded user and an upgraded user the option.
It lets upgraded users decide if a trade is legitimate, still allows unupgraded users access to the majority of traders from before, and still encourages people to upgrade in that they'd then be able to trade with everybody.
May 20, 2014 12:53 p.m.
Alright, I found it, but you should be able to do that from your binder as well.
May 20, 2014 3:44 p.m.
I agree that it would be much more convenient to be able to do it from your binder. Or at the very least, have the link of people you have active trades with take you straight to their binder, instead of their main page.
May 20, 2014 4:05 p.m.
uh oh someone's repeating something and isn't following the directions of the thread! i just realized i never said don't repeat and i suppose you were just showing support.
thank you all for your comments i think i have enough =)
May 20, 2014 4:35 p.m.
Hmmm... many features are only discovered by accident. =) Until then just keep telling upgraders to initiate the trades :P
May 20, 2014 7:12 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #33
So now that all the fuss has died down...
I really enjoy this website> I agree that it is the best community and deck building website out there. Rarely do you see much fuss between users and usually it's funny to watch unfold.
yeaGO: I like the system, it took me a few days to figure out where the trade accepted buttons were but I like that unupgraded users can't initiate official trades with each other. I'm sure they will find ways but the restriction and lack of supporting it is a good call.
Epochalyptik: I'm not envious of your job dealing w/ all the goobers that we have here, but I do appreciate the hard work you do keeping the site running. I like the changes and totally understand the reasoning behind it, even if the world explodes in a fuss over it. Keep up the good work guys
May 22, 2014 9:12 a.m.
Is this why all of my vouches have disappeared (as well as the people I can vouch for)?
May 22, 2014 4:06 p.m.
Ok, assume I'm an old guy who is overstressed with too much work and just realized that all my vouches are gone, and seeing 5 pages of comments is enough to put me on a ledge. Can someone give me the cliffnotes version of the new system? Will my old vouches somehow make it back on my page in some new manner or other?
May 22, 2014 4:25 p.m.
OHHHHHH I just saw them all listed on the side banner. Well, I can confirm that cognitive decline can be felt by the time you are in your 40s.
May 22, 2014 4:28 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #38
I'm late to this discussion, but there's definetly something missing from this.
A successful trade isn't necessarily a good one. It needs a feedback scoring system, like ebay has with it's stars.
for example
Yes, I did receive the cards from FictionalBob but he sent them three weeks late, one of the cards looked like it had been dipped in jam, fortunately that could be wiped off. So I hit accept and allow the system to trick fellow users into trading with this disgrace?
Needs feedback, like the way we had with vouches, it was vague but simple, people would vouch for you so others would trust you. Completed trades is okay, but seems like a step backwards.
May 29, 2014 2:22 p.m.
Agree with the above. I will add something so you can flag trades as not being favorable.
May 29, 2014 2:47 p.m.
I think a star system could work well. Then, just like ebay, users could have aggregate trading scores based on the average of all their ratings.
May 29, 2014 2:55 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #41
Do you think we could add the total price of the binders again? we had it before, and it was pretty nice to keep track of my binder value/wants value.
May 29, 2014 3:20 p.m.
Does binder matching work still or do I just have no matches on the entire site? Every time I load up the page, it just says "Generating..." and does nothing.
May 29, 2014 3:39 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #45
Could we also exclude inactive members from the binder matches once that is fixed? I've had 13 matched with someone inactive for 2 months.
May 29, 2014 4:24 p.m.
I concur. Binder matching is great and so is the system that tells you who has and wants a specific card, but the majority of those users haven't been active for over a month.
May 29, 2014 4:50 p.m.
wsurugby10 says... #47
I'm so confused by the new trading system. Whenever I list my cards I keep getting, "Your Inventory: Seems like a long card name?" What do I do to correct this?
1x Crosis's Charm , 1x Cruel Ultimatum , 1x Glen Elendra Archmage , 1x Grixis Charm , 1x Grixis Panorama , 1x Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge , 1x Muddle the Mixture , 1x Nekusar, the Mindrazer , 1x Obelisk of Grixis , 1x Temple of the False God , 1x Thragtusk , 1x Trygon Predator , 1x Vivid Crag , 1x Vivid Creek , 1x Vivid Marsh
That is how I listed my cards.
yeaGO says... #1
Regulus1010 good eye. fixing.
May 19, 2014 12:36 a.m.