Trading 2.0
TappedOut forum
Posted on March 30, 2012, 3:02 p.m. by yeaGO
Hello all
I'm going to make some changes to Trading very soon as TappedOut has become increasingly a target for scammers.
My original goal in creating trade binders wasn't to make TappedOut a trading site, it was to create a Trading feature for TappedOut users. If you are on this site solely for trading, you need to find another site! Plenty of MTG trading forums exist around the internet and this isn't one of them.
I don't want to remove trading entirely due to a few bad apples. So here's what I'm thinking:
- Pending trades list on the trade binder page
- Six month waiting period to trade (exemptions will be made in rare cases).
- Vouches come from upgraded users only
I'm looking for feedback and suggestions. Things which don't work:
- Trade history -- people can create sock puppet accounts to Make this up
- Deck history -- people make up decks really quickly to look busy
Thoughts, feedback?
alright, and what do you mean by the 6 month waiting period?
March 30, 2012 3:24 p.m.
I think it sounds good! Maybe, I don't know how complicated it would be, but there could be a way to show the trade with the prices so that way you don't have people bring to use prices from every site? it also saves time from having to go to the site and look up prices
March 30, 2012 3:27 p.m.
I'm mostly looking into Safety features right now as there have been a string of scammers targeting the site.
March 30, 2012 3:31 p.m.
yea, I know I just thought it would be cool lol.. As for security I think that sounds pretty good
March 30, 2012 3:35 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #9
I think that no matter what you do, you're going to have someone misusing a community site for bad trades. I'd just stick to the good old idea of not trading online with people you don't know or trust.
March 30, 2012 3:49 p.m.
If you say so.
The trouble is I can start 10 accounts which would all Vouch for me. Then copy 10 decks. Then I've got a full looking account and I'm ready to scam.
March 30, 2012 4:55 p.m.
The trouble is I need five bucks so that my word/vouch can be taken at face value.
March 30, 2012 5:46 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
It could be tweaked so that upgraded users and top decklords/community members got the benefits rather than just upgraded users. Perhaps an admin-generated list of trusted contributors would have vouching power, but that would be somewhat difficult to manage...
March 30, 2012 6:07 p.m.
admin generated list = yet another thing for me to maintain (or hassle other people to maintain)
=/
March 30, 2012 6:15 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
I feel like educating the community on proper trade procedure and giving some warnings would be more effective (and well-received) than a formal system to regulate trading (which would cut off a number of trustworthy users). It's a difficult problem to answer.
March 30, 2012 6:18 p.m.
I'm all for manually letting people into the trade process earlier than the 6 month limit, if they make a special request. Right now I'm looking at this thread and thinking, have I already banned this guy for trade-scamming? Then I look at his profile and see Miasma already hitting him up for trades.
March 30, 2012 6:20 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
It's more difficult for us to get formally involved in some respects because we don't serve as trade moderators or intermediaries.
Perhaps if the point system is fixed, we could use a point-based restriction for trading. That way, only established and constructive users would be able to use the trade system and anyone with a new account would be locked out by default.
March 30, 2012 6:28 p.m.
I like that idea. It also may renew a sense of drive for Tappedout users to become more active members of our wonderful community.
March 30, 2012 7:35 p.m.
Another idea I'll throw out. What if the rule of thumb is, the person that has been a member of tapped out the longest has to receive the cards before they send out.(unless they trust the other member and that's between them)
That would pretty much protect most people because the scammers will rarely if ever have more time on the site than the active members that you made the feature for.
At that point, references from respected members could count and be shown on the profile.
When it comes down to it, online trading is risky to begin with but at least if we put those rules into effect, we would have done our part to make it as safe as possible.
March 30, 2012 11:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
That's something I talk about in this article, but that still falls under the category of information and education. We (the admins) don't really have any regulatory power in the trades that any users make, so it's mostly a matter of devising a system that provides the most information about a trader's legitimacy as possible.
Then comes the matter of how to determine who is respected enough to have clout in the vouching department. It'd be easier to have a defined basis (such as points or title) for a system if we were to implement one. Otherwise it turns into an investigation of every user's activity to determine if they get on the list or not and that's not really realistic.
March 30, 2012 11:15 p.m.
oooh mpz, i like.
I'm also thinking about points, but I'd need to get the point system in order. sigh
March 30, 2012 11:19 p.m.
Agreed completely.
I looked at the article and I think that you covered it pretty well. I do think that a points based system could work but the question is then, how active is active? I know that we have people that post a deck now and again but are more lurkers than anything. They might be honest people and want to trade. I hate that it would affect them but I do understand that this isn't a trading site as well.
I dono. Honestly, IMO, if you get scammed then tough luck... you should have been more careful with who you traded with. I can understand why people are upset but the reality is, they just have to realize that it's not Tappedout's fault or responsibility.
March 30, 2012 11:23 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
There will inevitably be some innocent/genuine traders who get hurt by any system we implement. It's a matter of determining whether the benefits will outweigh their exclusion. That in itself is a matter of whether the system is effective or not.
@ yeaGO!: I guess it's a chance to kill two birds with one stone, eh? There's extra motivation now.
March 30, 2012 11:34 p.m.
If you genuinely don't want people to use this as a trading site, maybe just have the warnings stated bold and large (which they are) and direct those people to other sites that do have a good, similar trading system. It just so happens this site has a good system, displaying who has and wants a card on the card page, doing binder matches, and (before) a vouching system. I started using this site for deck building, but after deciding to take the plunge into online trading, this site really appealed even more to me.
But of course we must acknowledge the risk. Personally I might be really bummed if someone scammed me, but I'm not sending out something I can't afford to lose if it's a risky trade.
March 31, 2012 3:15 a.m.
Valentine35 says... #26
so am i not allowed to trade anymore since im only at 5 months? i figured by now with all the established people i have traded with i would be trustworthy by now. I understand where this is coming from i was ripped off once when i started here. I love this site and i check it and post on it almost everyday, just because i havent shelled out some cash to get a colored name doesnt mean i shouldnt be trusted lol. also if my trade vouch doesnt count for anything, and an upgraded user trades with me the upgraded user wont be able to get a vouch from me, but i can get one from him/her? that kinda doesnt seem fair to the upgraded user. sorry i understand what your trying to do, make this site safer, i just wanted to throw my hat into the mix, its not like i'll have a choice about these cahnges, your the boss.
March 31, 2012 9:37 a.m.
Valentine35 makes a good point. Do you think it would be possible to institute an appeal system?
March 31, 2012 11:14 a.m.
thesudosudo says... #28
After finding this site the trade aspect is one of the main reasons I joined. Not only could I build/playtest decks or get deck ideas I could also trade my cards with people who actually wanted them instead of with the four people in the small town I live in who only trade on dollar value. I am very upset with the fact that I am not able to make trades. I feel this is not in the best interest for your site or to attract new people to the site.
Just my two cents.
March 31, 2012 11:16 a.m.
rckclimber777 says... #29
I think those who have trade vouches now from upgraded users can bypass the 6 month waiting period.
I certainly understand the restrictions and I'm glad to see that you're working to stop scammers. I think its really hard to stop scammers and so it's always trader beware. I have only been scammed once thankfully, but it is important to always be careful when trading.
March 31, 2012 11:17 a.m.
Valentine, its a good point. When I improve the point system I can possibly use that instead. I'm not trying to put anything behind a pay-wall or profit in any way, I just need some way to distinguish people with a reputation from those who don't.
thesudosudo, You'll eventually be able to make trades once you gain some cred. If the site is so great there will be plenty of other reasons to stick around for that day. I don't want to attract one single person at TappedOut who only does trading.
March 31, 2012 11:32 a.m.
Valentine35 says... #31
i understand, and i apologize if i sounded like i thought you were just trying to make a profit. I probably made what i said a little dough-baggy, and it wasnt intended that way. yeahGo, i will trust and follow any changes you make. You havent lead us wrong thus far so i got your back bro.
March 31, 2012 1:50 p.m.
I just wanted to say I appreciate everything you all do to try and protect your users, even those who aren't upgraded. Its just nice to see the care that you all put into this. I would like to assume that everyone can be trusted but in reality it isn't that way unfortunately. It definitely requires a lot of trust to trade over the web and I just want to say thanks to everyone who I have traded with thus far. But again, thanks to the admin team and keep up the great work. I know I check this site atleast daily and if this great work keeps up I will definitely pay the small subscription fee just to say thanks. KUDOS!
April 1, 2012 3:14 a.m.
awww. Please no 6-month requirement. I can't even trade.
April 1, 2012 2:56 p.m.
[yeago!] how about a way to better distinguish your trade matches? Maybe highlight what cards somebody else has in their binder that you have on your want list? Or even a review page where you can see a small list of what cards are being offered for each of your matches?
April 1, 2012 7:53 p.m.
I'm gonna be frank here, but I think online trading is a complete waste of time. Maybe I'm baised because I live an hour and a half away from one of the largest Magic stores in the country - Superstars. But in all honesty, trading in the magic community is about diversity.
If you live in a small town with only four or five dedicated people, use the MtG Store Locator and drive to the largest city near you. Almost all cities have some sort of hobby shop that plays, buys, or sells Magic, and you'll be surprised how easy it is to get what you want.
In addition, why not purchase from online retailers? Starcity Games, Channel Fireball (Superstars), TCGPlayer, CoolStuffInc.com, Ebay, there are tons of places to find cards for the same price that your friends would trade with you. If you don't have the money, then liquidate the cards you're willing to trade with and buy them. But wait BuLLZ3Y3! Now I have cash! Well, use your newfound green and purchase a pre-paid debit card. You can find them almost anywhere (Wal-Mart, Target) and they're great for spending money online. Plus, your identity can't be stolen with a card that has no money other than the funds you just spent.
All in all, I'm sure online trading is a great way to get cards you normally don't have access to, but I think the only thing you can do is slap a big sign that says "Warning! Trade at your own Risk!" and point to it when people complain about being scammed. There isn't a system you can develop that would make all party's happy.
I don't know if you have this or not, but are there admins (or moderators) of just the trading aspect of the site? Perhaps they can check for inconsistencies in any vouches or deck activity (Same IP, copy-pasting decks from other users, etc.).
Just some of my opinions. TappedOut is my favorite site for deckbuilding and talking Magic with some awesome people.
April 2, 2012 2:50 a.m.
BuLLZ3Y3 I agree that no system will be 100% safe. The goal here is to brainstorm some ideas that will make it more safe than it already is.
April 2, 2012 4:09 a.m.
The concept is basically the same as ebay. You don't know 100% if the other person will follow through and send an item you paid for, or send the correct item as described. The difference is the robust feedback system.
April 2, 2012 5:56 a.m.
Valentine35 says... #38
i disagree. I live maybe 15 minutes from my local shop where a whole bunch of people play and trade every day. What i like about online trading is that some of the cards people are asking for on here, no one is asking for at my shop. Everyone has a different meta and at mine everyone always wants the same stuff, which i probably already traded away. The guy who owns the shop only wants to trade for the high value big selling cards which is understandable he isnt playing for fun he is running a business. I just love the fact that i get to trade with people who need something else, instead of looking at my binder and saying "where is all the good stuff?"...or..."do you want to trade your snapcasters/geist of saint traft/sorin lord of innistrad?"... i like the fact that, on this website people need all sorts of things and i can oblige them with the cards they need...and if your really THAT scared to trade online then the solution is simple...don't....Also dont forget in the end the cards we trade are only cardboard...yes sometimes very expensive cardboard, but cardboard nonetheless, lol...
April 2, 2012 6:43 a.m.
ThatCrazy_Walrus says... #39
How about you must have person(s) you trade with as friends, at least 10 active comments/posts of decks per week, email vouches (like you have to receive an email from the site about user you're vouching for), 6 months activity, positive trade feedback (like 1 strike and your banned hopefully by Ip address)
April 2, 2012 10:53 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #40
@ThatCrazy_Walrus: Okay in all honesty, that just sounds like making trading IMPOSSIBLE on the site. Not everyone has the time to do all this stuff. Lets see, there's work, school, projects, holidays to spend time with family, getting out of the house, etc.
I don't really have much input on this, except that 6 months of being active often seems a bit....extreme for a waiting period. You have to wait half a year while being active just to have access to trade? I know this isn't a trading site, but if you allow the features here, but make the users, new or only starting out, wait half a year to have access to trades, it's gonna shy them away. Basically says build decks and comment like crazy for half a year....not fun doing that for so long.
I do agree that the person you're trading with has to be on your friend's list, and that they should be giving feedback on decks in a respectful manner, as well building decks to provide to the community. I'm horrible with giving my input >.<
April 2, 2012 11:29 p.m.
ThatCrazy_Walrus says... #41
I just put in suggestions, not like I want them all at once.
April 2, 2012 11:34 p.m.
I agree with UmbrotheUmbreon that 6 months seems excessive. A points system seems to be the most fun, effective, and visually appealing route to go in my opinion.
April 2, 2012 11:34 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #43
@ThatCrazy_Walrus: Was just saying man.
@Moobu: I'm only at three months, yet have had a few successful trades already. Having to wait another 3 just to trade again.....not fun .__.
April 2, 2012 11:39 p.m.
yeaGO! What about some kind of "maximum trade limit" gauge that people need recommendations to "level up"?
Something like... all new users start with a maximum recommended trade limit of $5-10. Then each successful trade they complete they rate each other on packaging/quickness/honesty to gain higher trading limit recommendations. Eventually their limit maxes out and becomes kind of a "star trader" which represents somebody on the site that is very respected and trustworthy to make any trade of any size/value. Although you would have to make a system that tracks each trade and forces feedback on both ends. Maybe omit the "star traders" from having to give each other feedback since they gain nothing from it?
April 2, 2012 11:46 p.m.
Oh I forgot to add. Don't restrict trading at all on the website. Simply use the gauge as a reference for others to make decisions about the individual on their own.
April 2, 2012 11:48 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #46
The only problem with the rating system is distance. Trading from NH all the way to somewhere like Idaho is gonna take quite some time, about a week or two. Then there is the fact that if you need only a couple 20$ lands (shock lands, fetch lands, etc), there goes that until you do other trades that you don't need.
Now lets move onto packaging. An envelope and stamp is the most efficient and cheapest way of doing it. It is also, I believe, the main way. It is a good idea though. Definitely something worth looking into.
April 3, 2012 midnight
UmbrotheUmbreon you also have to factor in that just because somebody has a lower rating doesn't mean everyone won't trade with him. I didn't factor in mail time thats for sure. I disagree about cards in a cheap envelope. As far as I know all the serious traders on here buy penny sleeves, hard sleeves, and bubble envelopes to send their cards. Total it's supposed to cost about $2.00. I'm willing to pack that way without additional charge if the person I'm trading with agrees to pack the same way.
April 3, 2012 8:10 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #48
I know $2 isn't a lot, but in certain circumstances, lots of people can't even get that....is one of them
Anyway, I did agree that it was a good idea.
April 3, 2012 12:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #49
In my trading article I advocate using padded or bubble envelopes. With standard letter envelopes there is too high a chance of something going wrong. I have had cards arrive in mangled envelopes because the hard cases didn't make friends with the automatic processors. The $2.00 is worth it and you can buy the packages and fill them out right at the post office.
April 3, 2012 12:57 p.m.
Valentine35 says... #50
i usualy use old deck protectors. They keep the card protected while being flexible enough to go through the auto processors without tearing up the envelope. Also you could just fold a piece of computer paper around he deck protector to fill out the envelop so nothing gets snagged from a bent envelope during shipping.
2austin5 says... #2
would the vouches we already have stay on the profile?
March 30, 2012 3:23 p.m.