What if.... points did matter?
TappedOut forum
Posted on March 6, 2015, 4:57 a.m. by Aefinn
Yeah, I know. I know.
But what if they did matter? I mean, there is much more potential in the system, it just hasn't been utilized yet. Maybe a point shop where you can buy extra perks for points? Maybe something like this:
- Extra deckcycle: 150 points
- T/O Lottery: 150 points
- Send points to other user: x points
- Take off the deckling text: 5000 points
- Custem text instead deckling: 10000 points
Lottery could something like where you could won more points or maybe a single token. Lottery could be hel once a week/month.
That said, I think there should be some changes made to how you get points so that the situation wouldn't get too crazy.
- Forum post: +1 point
- Deck post: +1 point
- Good card suggestion: +1 point
- Upvotes in your own deck: +1 per vote
- Q&A answer: 1 point
- Q&A accepted answer: 2 points
- Article: 5 points?
- Card fix: 1 point?
- Posts in BE: 0 points
Moderators could also have a tool to give minus points for bad behavior (for example if someone is spamming or abusing the system in some way like posting links to upvote their deck)
Hopefully something like this would encourage users to be more active and especially help each others. There is of course the downside that there would be a bigger possibility for having users that try to abuse the system. If the rank system we now have is something we want to keep intact there could be two point meters: one that show how many points there are left at that time and one that shows the "eternal point gain" and it wouldn't drop (but you couldn't use those point for anything either, it would be there just for ranking reason).
Femme_Fatale says... #3
Card Fixes shouldn't be on that list. Honestly, I would rather be the only one working on it, and a few people who've I've given the go to just have free roam over it as well.
March 6, 2015 5:05 a.m.
That system sort of already is the case. When you get into the top 100 you can change the 'deckling' title - and being in the top 100 is based on points.
March 6, 2015 5:08 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #5
However, spending points on like, extra deckcycles or lottery chances is a wonderful idea. I don't suggest outright buying tokens because that would probably decrease yeago's income.
March 6, 2015 5:10 a.m.
NorthernRaven, yeah. I know. And this would encourage people to help other users with their decks and Q&A
Femme_Fatale Fair point
ChiefBell Yes, I know. This would give more people the opportunity to deal with that. And as I mentioned, there would be other perks too. Maybe those what I already listed, maybe something else.
March 6, 2015 5:11 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #7
What if you could have like, a permanent deckcycle number upgrade! OOOOO.
March 6, 2015 5:11 a.m.
Femme_Fatale I agree completely. That's why I left it out :)
March 6, 2015 5:13 a.m.
That's a neet idea too! But the amount of points to get permanent upgrade should be pretty high. 10k points minimum.
March 6, 2015 5:14 a.m.
ChiefBell, yeago talked earlier about reducing all BE points out. I bet there wouldn't be that many users left with that many points.
March 6, 2015 5:16 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #13
Everyone below the top 10 is like, at 30k and lower.
March 6, 2015 5:24 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #14
The sample size for those who have a lot points is actually really quite low. It would also help fluctuate the top 100 for more users who want a chance at it.
March 6, 2015 5:25 a.m.
I don't post in BE as much as I post in Modern, on decks, and on peoples walls etc.
March 6, 2015 5:28 a.m.
ChiefBell so... you think this should revolve more around you and not the rest of the community? I do understand your point but you have to think the bigger picture here.
March 6, 2015 5:32 a.m.
No, no, not at all. That's not my point. I'm saying this is just going to punish a random handful of users, not necessarily all of the top 10.
March 6, 2015 5:35 a.m.
I feel like this is a good idea in theory, possibly in the medium-to-long term, if all the kinks get ironed out. However, in the short term, we'd probably see some amount of people commenting on just about everything they can just for the points, and that just creates extra work for the people who run the site, especially if they tried to implement some kind of negative points system for the spammer types.
It'd be tricky to figure out the proper balance, and unless we get rewards beyond extra deckcycles, I don't honestly see the point.
March 6, 2015 5:38 a.m.
We are always hesitant to make points matter just in case we get an influx of shitposting. It's probably worth trying out, though. I don't like the idea of spending points though which means that someone could go from top 100 to having no points in an instant. It would encourage people to just literally post as much as they can, constantly.
March 6, 2015 5:42 a.m.
I have to correct myself a little. It was Epochalyptik, not Yeago who stated the possibility of removing points from BE posts (Just more chatting, page 45).
I also see why to be hesitant about this. The more I think about this, the more I'll start to lean towards idea that there would be secondary point system (help points for example) and you could get those only from Q&A, accepted card suggestions and so on. And then the point shop would be only for help points. This way there wouldn't be any reason to spam forums and the ranking system we already have wouldn't have to change at all.
March 6, 2015 6:44 a.m.
That's a really good idea. A second pool of points that's only awarded for posting in the Q&A or giving other's upvotes. Perhaps other things.
March 6, 2015 6:59 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #23
You currently need 13360 points to be in the Top 100. Once the system marks it as a new day, that number will rise. No point spending precious points to get a title that you only need to grind 4000 more points for.
March 6, 2015 8:04 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
I've pitched various point-based reward systems over the years, but we ultimately determined that there's not much merit to them. Now, maybe that philosophy will change, but the costs of the rewards should be fairly high. I think one of the discussions we had earlier was about feature tokens for every couple thousand points or so.
March 6, 2015 8:06 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #25
Epochalyptik You could add a once off token reward for the first time you reach top 100.
March 6, 2015 8:07 a.m.
Personally I think that if giving upvotes to others deck would result in gaining help points it could also backfire. More pleople would upvote decks that normally they wouldn't, thus making the whole deck upvoting pointless.
Instead I think that if you suggest some cards and the deck owner adds them as good suggestions, you would get a help point. Also the Q&A. That way you would get points from helping.
But as Femme_Fatale (and I) already stated, giving token rewards from these could be bad just because that could have an effect on token sales. But if admins thinks that could work, then by all means :) More to us.
March 6, 2015 8:41 a.m.
So maybe answering the Q&A and having card suggestions accepted could be put towards another pool of points that gives you an extra deckcycle or something?
March 6, 2015 9:02 a.m.
Personally, I like the systems as it is - you help other as much as you can and what you get in return is (hopefully) recognition and respect within the community. Getting points that matter for something will result in that thing being abused to hell:
e.g. if you give out meaningful points for helping out in the Q&A you will get people answering with "Yeah, I agree with the accepted answer!" just to get a few points.
This would require even more careful moderation - I mean people were upset when Epoch was selecting his better and more complete answer as the best one. Making any points matter will cause even more contention.
March 6, 2015 9:08 a.m.
Here's my two cents from previous experience in a very small Internet forum where several different rewards systems were implemented. yeaGO, I'd like you to read this before making any decisions.
Points, as they're called in this website, would essentially become currency if a method of spending them became reality. When you introduce a currency into an Internet forum, there are drastic shifts in the mentality of the userbase culture. What I noticed in said small forum was that the currency motivated people to get more and more of it (similar to real life) by whatever means necessary. This did occasionally result in massive amounts of spam and useless posts and threads, as well as a "circlejerk" cycle of upvotes.
While activity would increase as a direct result of this, there were several negative outcomes, especially in the DRAMA department. The whole atmosphere of that forum became more and more toxic as time went on, as people created artificial personas to create more opportunities for posts, upvotes (which were called +1's), and drama/trolling that would generate more posts etc. And all of this combined still made the users feel good because of the reward system - even though the posts and drama were toxic, the "points" were rewarding you, so you kept doing it.
I don't know exactly how much of this would translate to a big forum like TappedOut, but I don't think it's a good idea to try. There WILL be a lot of conflict and the culture of the site will change, I can guarantee that.
I think the best alternative to creating a currency would be to simply give users a simple reward (extra deckcycle, token, whatever) for every X points they earn, without decreasing their total amount of points. And you can just implement this without considering previous points earned - this doesn't leave newer users at a disadvantage and you don't have to reset point totals, which would punish users that already have massive amounts of points.
tl;dr Forum currency generates a toxic culture
March 6, 2015 10 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #30
hmm ... Goody raises a very good point. And to expand on that, making it a relatively unknown feature could probably help it as well. Perhaps the user is given a little notification that they've earned another deckcycle for the day or a feature token, but not much else to dictate that it comes from points, unless they ask.
March 6, 2015 4:44 p.m.
Or just, like stated multiple times already, make the system so that you wouldn't get points from forum posting, nor upvoting but from things that really helps the community, like good card suggestions and accepted Q&A answers. That way, even if there would be people who wants points more than anything, they can achieve that by only being helpfull.
March 6, 2015 5:23 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #32
It won't be good in Q&A because Epoch mainly resides in that area. I don't want it in card submissions because then everyone will be putting everything and anything into a submission and it will be annoying as all hell.
March 6, 2015 5:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
That's basically why none of the previous proposals flew, even though they were much lower key than this one.
Ideas that have been pitched in the past include a feature token per 5000 points or so, a bonus one-use deckcycle every 1000 points or so, and a few other things. The rewards would have to be very minor things to reduce the desire of users to farm points.
Also, I really don't think point totals should include certain things. For example, voting is effectively useless. I don't think upvotes should contribute to point totals because they're generally a popularity thing and people don't need to start begging everyone for votes.
Q&A answers would be a good choice, but their inclusion would have to be subject to the outcome of the last discussion we had about the Q&A. Some of you were involved in that discussion. Having answers count toward point totals would only be useful if the selected answers were always the best ones, not the ones OP happened to like more.
Posts are currently a toss-up. I pitched the idea of removing BE posts from point calculations, and I think yeaGO is on board with that. BE really doesn't produce topically relevant discussion, and a lot of the posts in BE are in the chatting threads, which are currently like massive point farms. I don't have an issue with the chatting threads existing, but they shouldn't contribute to a site statistic that's meant to estimate how helpful you are around here.
Other variables include good card suggestions and card fixes.
March 6, 2015 5:28 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #35
Like, how blue usernames have 1 deckcycle a day and upgraded users have 3 deckcycles a day, you could upgrade that to be 2 or 4 (and higher and higher) with points.
March 6, 2015 9:39 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
Probably a permanent increment to your per-day deckcycling limit.
I'm more in favor of consumable bonuses if we offer any at all.
The_Raven says... #2
Lol....
This is a site about MTG, not about points...
:)
March 6, 2015 5:01 a.m.