why are there no primers on here?
TappedOut forum
Posted on June 17, 2014, 3 p.m. by phaze08
Alot of other sites have these and I think they're pretty useful. So I thought "what would I need to do to get a primer or two on tappedout? Well we could all get together and compile all sorts of info..... But then have to post on another site?" I think most of us prefer this site. Why are there no primers on here? Is there a reason or is it just because no one has wrote any?
vampirelazarus says... #3
Imo, the only reason no one has done it is because there is no efficient way in place to keep track of them.
There was division about a week ago about using the hubs on the decks to link to a primer, but then it came down to getting someone to actually write tbd damn thing.
June 17, 2014 3:05 p.m.
I think there was an article and he was going to get one going but he was going to post the primer as an article and send to you to post. Is that the one your thinking of?
June 17, 2014 3:05 p.m.
I actually would really like a primer type of series on this site. How would we organize it? I would be more than willing to write a couple of them for them archetypes I'm familiar with.
June 17, 2014 3:06 p.m.
If we're going to do primers, I think a dedicated forums for it should be put up.
With the sample/similar forum names: "Standard Deck Primers" "Modern Deck Primers" 'EDH Deck Primers" etc...
With each post needing approval by an admin or trusted member after reading/verifying the content (an consensus expert on the format).
Ideally this should be one forum "Deck Primers" with sub forums, but we all know that limitiation exists, but throwing it out there.
There is another idea I had with "Deck Primers" as the forum, and each primer prefixed by the format i.e. "Modern - U/W/R Control"
Either way, I think the standard primers will get more cluttered than it should and would also need to rotate when decks rotate or become unviable.
Deck lists should be allowed by the article and people posting in the thread to allow for a variety. I also think the author should be allowed to edit the original post, to update the list of card choices for the deck (maybe someone added a card they didn't originally and it's still a good card for that list). Giving players options on how to build the deck, instead of pigeon holing into one build and/or forcing them to look through the majority of lists to find the differences. Another ability we lack in this setup.
All in all, I believe primers are something we want and need for this site, but we lack sufficient functionality in the forum software to sanely maintain it. (Not saying it can't be done, but will get unwieldy quickly and easily given the current state of the forums).
June 17, 2014 3:16 p.m.
The more I think about it, I think the primers should be deck lists instead of forum posts and special hub set up for it, for each format I think this would be the most manageable form, given the limitations mentioned above. It provides everything we need, a way to list cards choices, the description field is the explanation for everything and sample decks, q&a can be handled in the decks comment section and easily delete-able and editable.
June 17, 2014 3:20 p.m.
Though I do think that any decklist added as a primer should be first checked and approved by some admin or similar person, before being added to the primer hub as stated above.
June 17, 2014 3:21 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #9
The whole thing would have credibility issues to me. Who determines who is qualified to write these? The primer could be full of non-sense and trash advice but be advertised as legit information by this site.
June 17, 2014 3:24 p.m.
I would argue it would be a group consensus and agreement on who has the credibility here.
For example, no one would question Epochalyptiks views on edh and edh decks. So he would get final say there.
Those who have constantly given good advice and shown strong knowledge in the deck help forums, consistently and in good measure, across all tiers of the format they are nominated for, should be the chosen ones.
they should also be elected by us, the general population. Whether it's a popularity contest or not, those who have not shown enough interest to be active in deck help and proven to have good knowledge on a formats ins and outs, should not be allowed to be nominated.
How do we determine this criteria? Through data mining, finding the stats on which decks a person has talked about, number of good suggestions they've made in cards and a vote by the people in general. (Also should be continuously active).
These are the people who should approve the primers as 'official' and any others as people writing up their own thing.
June 17, 2014 3:31 p.m.
I'll say the same thing I said then.... START WRITING :P I'll publish them.
June 17, 2014 3:34 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #12
And that was where it died. No one took the initiative to write them.
And what if you combined it into a deck list, and its own forum? The forums could be used to organize the primers, and the deck lists for editing and discussion?
Maybe tonight after work, if I don't go play Magic, I'll try to write a primer for Esper Gifts, since its quickly become my favorite deck to play (but it isn't tier one, so it might not go over well.)
June 17, 2014 3:42 p.m.
this is where community leaders come in handy =)
someone own the problem! i can't just go build out a primers section if there's no kickoff content.
I'd love to add these to the site, it seems awesome. start another thread on this topic and I will conclude it with the same enthusiasm (and the same demand :P )
June 17, 2014 3:50 p.m.
Were is the start of one, when I have time to finish it off (tonight) I will.
It does need more detail and talk on the sideboard.
Primer U/W/R Playtest
Modern*
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 5 VIEWSJune 17, 2014 3:57 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #16
I should amend my post. I'll write one today or tomorrow, but it's all dependant on my plans tonight.
June 17, 2014 3:58 p.m.
You can just write a primer about your deck when you publish it, especially if it's a known archetype.
June 17, 2014 4:24 p.m.
ChiefBell I think the problem is in labeling it as such and also, primers are not always exact lists, but a selection of cards people use to build their lists. While my uw/r control primer is a copy from my own personal list. It's not 1:1 because I don't have all the cards, for example, I only have 1 Arid Mesa and using 3 Marsh Flats as a replacement. The primer reflects the true 4 Arid Mesa you see in most decks of this type. I'll be adding cards that I don't run, that others do like Porphyry Nodes , Supreme Verdict and Gideon Jura to the maybe board and explaining why and how they are used and where.
This to me is what a primer is. In addition how to sideboard, play it and what your overall goal is with the deck, etc...
While in general I think people should do this for their lists, having a less specific primer is a positive thing.
June 17, 2014 4:35 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #19
As much as I want to write one, I think we'd continually run into the credibility thing.
Literally who am I to give advice on Courser Jund other than I've been running it for 2 months and play 2-3 times a week locally. I know match ups and such, but I'm no Pro (Yet, there are 6 PTQ's within driving range of me!)
On the other hand, I may be qualified to write a primer on a Mayael the Anima EDH deck, but my way of playing it is not the only way or even the way most people would play.
If credibility is something people aren't worried about, then by all means I'll have some written up soon!
June 17, 2014 4:37 p.m.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to add a new hub labelled "Primer". That way people can make individual primers indpendently and they will be able to judge quality by the votes and views it has. I thought of a few other ways to do it inspired by Epochalyptik's living EDH primer profile - but I think a hub would be simplest. A hub requires no additional webpage to be made and no list of official primer names to be kept up or assigned.
I think decklists are a good start but the additional hub tag will make the primer decks easier to find.
June 17, 2014 4:39 p.m.
My answer to the credibility issue is to involve as many voices in the process as possible. I would start the primer by having someone who is very familiar with the archetype, and plays it regularly themselves, write up a basic list and an explanation (complete with sideboard tech, card choice reasonings, etc.). Then, the community can add to and perfect the primer through the comments. By involving a number of people and arriving at a sort of consensus, I think we could best achieve a level of credibility.
June 17, 2014 4:43 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #22
Give me a week, and I will have a video primer that will get you thinking "that deck is the truth". who do I send it to these days anyways??? yeaGO?
June 17, 2014 4:44 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #23
I started a thread on this awhile back. I dig the additional ideas.
Here's the primer I wrote (needs revision):
Modern RDW Primer Playtest
Modern*
SCORE: 1 | 2 COMMENTS | 162 VIEWSJune 17, 2014 4:56 p.m.
I think that it's up to the reader to take primers with caution rather than believing everything they read.
June 17, 2014 4:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
What if we did this:
Create a new kind of article called "Primers." The new class would handle only primers, and would be displayed like articles currently are. There would be a discussion section as well (might have to paginate discussions because I can see them becoming quite long).
Allow admins to write and edit primers. We can probably create a new user class with privs for only the primer-related stuff. This way, we have more direct quality control, and we prevent people from adding inaccurate or inane information.
Associate hubs and formats with primers to connect them with other, existing elements of the site. Browsing by hub or format could display a list of primers ordered by most recently discussed or something.
June 17, 2014 5:04 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #26
I'd be down to having the ability to manage the primers, if you think you'd need another person for it, that is :P
June 17, 2014 5:08 p.m.
I think it needs to be ensured that the primers or a link the primers is prominently placed and easily accessible.
June 17, 2014 5:08 p.m.
I think that it would work. It isn't the easiest solution but it does promote the quality control and vision of the site more. This also adds a bit more swag and glory to those chosen to write primers - it might help to get more of "the right people" to write more. I could see just plain implementation of a primer hub getting abused as a way to solicit extra views.
Sure!
June 17, 2014 5:10 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #29
Primers are pretty intensive work. A proper primer not only involves deck choices but sideboard in and out guides, cards needed to keep a hand in a matchup, etc. I agree with the idea of having the creators limited so they do not become full of inane crap.
I do have a few things written up and good to go, but, frankly, the formatting here has never really seemed to be conducive to having them posted. I volunteer for a QC position if it comes around that we need them.
June 17, 2014 5:12 p.m.
I'm in the process of writing a b/w token primer. I've played it for about a year and give advice on new b/w token decks constantly so I would think I would be qualified to write a primer for that archetype.
June 17, 2014 5:21 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #32
Some things to think about as we move forward:
How would people apply to be the author of a primer?
If primers are written in the form of Articles now, they will be terribly long. Is there a way to make them "collapsable" and have sections that can be compressed and then opened at the reader's pace?
Also I'd like to apply to write a primer or two.
June 17, 2014 5:46 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #33
I am also interested in someday becoming a modern primer writer. Maybe legacy. Whateves.
June 17, 2014 5:49 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #34
There are codes so you can press a link and it'll drop down information. Very useful in terms of compressing long bits of information.
June 17, 2014 5:50 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #36
I suppose I could be a primer writer. At the very least I could put the articles up on the site.
June 17, 2014 5:52 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #37
Codes? Fuck it, I will just stick to my video articles... Which reminds me, I need to get my "random prizes" together. So I can start filming round 2. First episode is going to be a modern "Jund off" with my friend. The premise is will a stock SCG winning list with little practice, (him) hold in a mirror match against a tuned and heavily played and tweaked list (me).
June 17, 2014 5:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #38
I've written a primer for MTGS before. It's a little out of date now, but considering I've done that and I'm a regular author here, I so understand the process.
Collapsible text would he helpful, but I think the only way to do that as of right now is to hard code it in HTML. That gets pretty ugly.
As for author/editor selection, I'd probably spearhead that as well. Should the proposed system be implemented, I'd be choosing people who know a reasonable amount about their specified format(s) and who can write to a reasonable standard.
I also want to clarify that the primers I'd like to see are not the same as those on MTGS, which, in my experience, have been largely deck-specific. I'd rather see the official primers deal with archetypes. Individual users are welcome to write primers for their own decks using their deck descriptions, but there's no reason we should collect those individual primers into an official directory.
June 17, 2014 6 p.m.
making primers as decks seems to have lit a kind of fuse. maybe we could have a system for applying to have your deck added as format Primer
June 17, 2014 6:05 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #40
I'd rather that not be the case. The problem is that there are so, so few examples of decks that epitomize an archetype or strategy, and people would just put up requests for their decks because they think it's cool publicity.
That's why I like the idea of a curating team to write, edit, and maintain primers. It makes sure that the primers are exactly what they're supposed to be - summaries and analyses of archetypes in and across formats.
June 17, 2014 6:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #42
I think part of the allure of having an official TappedOut primer collection is having it on the site. Barring that, a wiki wouldn't be a bad idea, actually. If we could restrict editing privileges to registered and approved members, I'd be behind it. Wikis permit discussion pages as well, although they're a little less interactive and a little more downplayed.
I'm also familiar with wikis, so I'll be able to provide input regardless of which system we use.
June 17, 2014 6:20 p.m.
I think a good primer would definitely be a little more general, as opposed to a specific deck list. Its obviously possible to have an outline of an example list within the primer, but a well written primer should spend more focus on detailing the archetype itself, explaining strategy, goals of the deck, good and bad matchups in the meta, etc.
Having some version of a wiki would be an interesting idea, as long as any changes would require admin approval. It would allow the community to provide input into the primers and arrive at a good consensus.
June 17, 2014 6:22 p.m.
As a disclaimer, I know next to nothing about HTML etc. But wouldn't it be possible to just have a wiki page within the site, like with a tab at the top that links to it? It shouldn't have to its own separate entity.
June 17, 2014 6:23 p.m.
If media wiki fixed their caching issues, it might be worth it, but meh, it wasn't worth the headaches a few years ago.
June 17, 2014 7:09 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #46
Epochalyptik ideas would clear up the credibility issues of these primers I think.
June 17, 2014 7:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #47
@Rasta_Viking29: I'm not quite sure what you mean to say.
June 17, 2014 7:51 p.m.
I agree with kmcree on the credibility thing....with alot of community involvement, we should be able to arrive at the accepted correct information most of the time. Maybe I'll start messing with something myself soon. :D
June 18, 2014 9:05 a.m.
Epochalyptik is adding a new section to the site a realistic goal? This sounds great but is this something whoever maintains the website would be willing (And able) to do? If so I really think it would help the site overall as some of the other MTG sites have extensive primers and TappedOut does not.
June 18, 2014 9:11 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #50
I wouldn't say it's unrealistic. Granted, I'm more of an Adviser to the High Council. yeaGO and his team handle the behind-the-scenes work; I'm merely there for input and to (eventually) help manage community use of the new features.
Epochalyptik says... #2
There was a thread on this not long ago, but I'm not sure what the consensus was.
June 17, 2014 3:02 p.m.