please delete
TappedOut forum
Posted on Aug. 20, 2015, 12:13 a.m. by theorganizationmoogle
whatever, shouldn't have bothered saying anything.
Ohthenoises says... #3
As someone who was an engineer before I became a soldier and then a Vet that meme is relevant to me as well.
August 20, 2015 2:35 a.m.
notamardybum I dont think anyone is justifying that meme.
August 20, 2015 2:39 a.m.
I really feel this video is exactly on point in this discussion (ignore the comedic value in the above video). I encourage everyone to watch more Carlin.
My 
cents:
People in this day and age have become immune to shock. Whatever language is used, people are rarely shocked or moved by words alone. Naming a deck on site about MTG does for the propensity of sexual assault just as much as playing cards with demons does for the propensity of religious cults - not at all.
However, abusing language does let us be desensitized about it. Shell shocked carries a lot more negativity with it than the acronym PTSD. But there is for sure no need to react to the word in the same way we react to the act. Our language and use of words is constantly evolving. Nobody has said "dollface" since the 30s or "rad" since it was ... rad to do in the 90s. And I hope YOLO goes the way of the DODO as well. Language changes over time, it is a natural process.
We have collectively decided that "rape" is (kind of) OK to be casually thrown around. We need to collectively decide what the more shocking word for "rape" needs to be.
tl;dr: The word "rape" is the one that needs to evolve into something more negative.
August 20, 2015 2:51 a.m.
JohnnyBaggins says... #7
Wow, some of the people in this place are awful.
Thank you for making this post, it's highly relevant and never won't be be.
August 20, 2015 2:52 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #8
Ohthenoises - Ok. But I very much disagree that asking people to do something is a form of censorship, or a call for it. Like if I came to a party and you were there and I had brought a tray of Jell-o shots, and you were like "Hey man, could you not bring Jell-o shots next time?" I would probably comply, rather than telling you about my rights, and keep the Jell-o shots to myself. And I certainly wouldn't give you shit for asking, in any case. You may not be the type of person who would ask such a thing anyway, but I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who asks such a thing when we're talking about something as injurious as rape or PTSD.
I wouldn't call these people whiners, nor their request futile: link. Nor would I claim that they were infringing on anyone's rights, or attempting to. They're just asking their neighbors to not be dicks.
August 20, 2015 2:52 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #9
Cobthecobbler you're right about my second comment, it does sound that way, like i said i'm not very good at writing/expressing my thoughts thats why almost all my initial post is quotes from articles on the subject (everything after the first paragraph was not written by me)
i was mostly just trying to refer back to the last paragraph of my initial post "When a murder is reported, it is always investigated and taken seriously. Even young children know and understand that killing is wrong.Rape, however, still has a long way to go in terms of awareness, understanding, and prosecution. Almost all rapists (94 percent) do not spend even a day in jail."
also to everyone saying "come on this is the internet!" and someone mentioned 4chan, i mean really, do we not want to be better than 4chan?
August 20, 2015 2:53 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #10
Boza that is a good point and i'm usually a big advocate of the language is evolving thing and taken a step further i'm usually on the "people are just being too sensitive" side of a lot of arguments I just remember seeing decks with rape in the title and being upset so i did some reading up on the subject and i happen to think there are a lot of good arguments in this case
August 20, 2015 2:58 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #11
notamardybum - Dude. Do you really need to be that much of an asshole? I realize you're probably a kid, and to be fair, I was an asshole when I was a kid. But i regret it. I hope you do at some point as well.
August 20, 2015 3:01 a.m.
Exactly, having everyone to agree not to talk about rape unless it is actually rape, will NEVER happen. Policing what people say is not exactly democratic, even if done with good intentions, since the intent does not matter.
Giving people new opportunities, even in language, is a lot more valuable than tearing down everyone who talks about sexual assault out of context.
August 20, 2015 3:02 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #13
Also there's been some talk of banning and i certainly don't think anyone should get banned over this sort of thing, it was a polite request for people to be more considerate along with an attempt to educate on the subject that i had hoped would lead to making the site more welcoming and if it sparked some debate people would keep it civil. maybe i shouldn't have mentioned the vampire deck by name but i wanted to give some context to what i was talking about. i usually don't comment on things on the internet i just happen to spend a lot of time on this website and its frustrating to log in to work on a new deck and see RAPE YO' ASS plastered across the front page
August 20, 2015 3:04 a.m.
I renamed one of my decks Santa's Tiny Struggle Snugglers.
August 20, 2015 3:13 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #15
Boza i'll say it again i'm not the best at arguing so i hope this doesn't come across wrong, i want to try to use racism as an example. so in real life at least, ignoring the anonymous parts of the internet, its considered racist and not okay for a white person to say Ni**er. and i understand that black people have sort of adopted it and use it casually. but to it seems like to me hearing rape used out of context is like hearing a bunch of white kids call each other nigger, its not a big deal but it is a small part of larger problem. i guess that's what i'm trying to say.
one of the quotes i posted was:"Often, these are good, respectful men who I am positive don't intend anything negative by throwing the word around. These are my friends, my coworkers -- people I respect and admire. I'm left in these situations wondering simultaneously why the hell can they think co-opting this word is okay and whether or not I should speak up."
i think the author might have been a little harsh with the "how the hell can they think this is ok" part, they probably just didn't think about it and it would be nice if people thought about what they say a little more
August 20, 2015 3:20 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #17
"94% of rapists don't spend a day in jail" as reported by sites such as Huffington post and company. I hope you have a long list of citations for a bullshit statement like that. Don't spread false infp
August 20, 2015 3:27 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #18
i'll admit that i was calling on the moderators to do something about this, the "censorship" that a lot of people have mentioned, but that was mostly based off the site's terms of use section 6. Fora and Community Areas subsection c. "In addition to any other rules, guidelines or regulations that we may post in connection with a particular service or feature, you agree that you shall not:(i) upload, post, transmit (via e-mail, e-card, chat or otherwise), or otherwise make available any content, language or materials that are fraudulent, unlawful, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, vulgar, offensive, profane, sexually explicit, indecent, threatening, abusive, violent, illegal, rude, harassing, or otherwise improper"
i guess this would fall under vulgar, offensive, and potentially sexually explicit depending on your definition
August 20, 2015 3:28 a.m.
OP is right. I asked them to change ages ago and forgot about it. Obviously my comment got deleted.
It is fairly sickening that someone would use rape to make a deck title as if it was somehow "witty". I don't get why people don't look at themselves and ask why they did that. It isn't like you are short on vampire references.
People throw the words freedom of speech around. That just means the government won't censor you. It isn't a right to have your views heard. It isn't a right to stop people from turning around, telling you you are a waste of skin and doesn't mean a website can't just not host decks with rape in the title. Same for people with racist deck titles.
A real question is, why do you think rape jokes are funny. If someone can satisfactorily explain that, I'll go.
August 20, 2015 3:30 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #20
Because rape is morbid and humans have a nack for using humor to deal with morbid subjects. Coping mechanism
August 20, 2015 3:32 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #21
VampireArmy you might be right, most news articles I've read seem to be really bad about citing sources and throwing statistics around, that number does seem hard to believe that its that high. but i don't think that invalidates the point they're trying to make
August 20, 2015 3:32 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #22
formayor if you brought Jell-O shots I would simply not partake. It's not my job to get upset that you might trigger PTSD because I don't feel like my personal feelings should infringe upon your ability to br My Jell-O shots. I honestly my wouldn't mention it because honestly? It's not relevant information and it's not something you need to know/care about.
I only brought it up in this discussion as a highlight to a user talking about PTSD like it's this big bad boogeyman.
Shit happens, deal with it.
August 20, 2015 3:35 a.m.
@VampireArmy, I really had a gripe with that too. What does it mean? 94% of rapists are not convicted? 94% are convicted, but are sent off to community service? 94% are given the finger and sent off home?
It is good to quote something (not make it the majority of the post), but without giving it context, it is meaningless.
@theorganizationmoogle "i just happen to spend a lot of time on this website and its frustrating to log in to work on a new deck and see RAPE YO' ASS plastered across the front page". I just happen disagree with that.
If the deck name was instead "Bend over and accept it, that way it will be quicker" would it be more acceptable? It is more about intent behind the words, rather than the words themselves; intent is exactly the difference between sex and sexual assault.
August 20, 2015 3:36 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #24
Understood but throwing around information you're not sure of isn't a good idea. theorganizationmoogle
August 20, 2015 3:36 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #25
VampireArmy i feel like its usually people with no experience in the matter making rape jokes though, its more like its something to do with things getting less shocking so we have to escalate, i could be wrong but i imagine back in the day people said "man i murdered that guy!" and it had more impact but as that became common people needed new edgier ways to express how badly they'd beaten someone at magic. kind of switched subjects but its more like, most people wouldn't tell those jokes outside the internet so why should we be ok with people being more offensive just because they're not in front of us
August 20, 2015 3:39 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #26
theorganizationmoogle how many times have you said (even jokingly) "I'm going to kill you!" to someone. If more than once, what's the difference between that and what you've just cited?
August 20, 2015 3:41 a.m.
They call me the credible hulk, cause I back up my statistics.
https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
Sources on that:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf
https://gbi.georgia.gov/sites/gbi.georgia.gov/files/imported/vgn/images/portal/cit_1210/23/32/1734093362010%20Summary%20Report.pdf
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/methodology
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc09.pdf
The figure generally is between 2%-6%. I'm leaning towards 6% because of http://www.rccmsc.org/resources/get-the-facts.aspx and it seems better sourced, as well as taking into account forcible rape, it includes men and children who have been.
August 20, 2015 3:44 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #28
Boza if nothing else that would be a more clever deck name, also i think consent is the difference not intent but i'm not sure if that is relevant. they intended to say "beat you at magic" but by phrasing it as rape yo' ass, it seems like they were just being inconsiderate.
VampireArmy you're right sorry, like i said i just thought the majority of the content was valid and wasn't really focusing on the numbers.
August 20, 2015 3:44 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #29
Ohthenoises - Yeah, I kinda doubt you'd tell a vet with a sign asking someone to be respectful about lighting off fireworks to just "deal with it." But then again, putting up one of those signs or making a post in a forum and discussing something is essentially "dealing with it," constructively, if you ask me.
August 20, 2015 3:46 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #30
VampireArmyin terms of the kill vs rape argument, same article and i think its still valid."the use of murder in this context, however, is not as problematic as that of rape. The two words, while perhaps interchangeable in a sentence, are different entities with different histories.For the last several centuries, murder has been universally accepted as the horrible crime that it is. When a murder is reported, it is always investigated and taken seriously. Even young children know and understand that killing is wrong.Rape, however, still has a long way to go in terms of awareness, understanding, and prosecution."
August 20, 2015 3:48 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #31
theorganizationmoogle for what it's worth i appologize you felt so hurt you felt you had to post this thread. I don't have any ill will towards you even if we disagree
No need to apologize for bringing it up though. It's healthy to debate. It improves your ability to think. I'm sure my good friend ChiefBell might pop in to completely disagree with just about everything I've said if he's up to it.
August 20, 2015 3:49 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #32
Also murder will always be 100% worse than rape. The ending of someone's existence as a human being is strictly worse than rape. It sounds wrong but it's true.
One can't say that murder is taken more seriously than rape. Here's why. In a murder there is one clear victim and one clear perpetrator. The dead and the murderer obviously. In a rape case, there isn't a clear anything. I don't get where people are getting the idea that in first world society rape is widespread ignored anywhere. Yes I'm sure it happeneds but at the level that people are claiming? Simply no. Perhaps in the middle east or parts of Africa that makes sense but not here.
Just because the accused is not found guilty as much as these people would like (yea I'm fairly positive that's the issue here) does not mean rape is not being investigated properly
August 20, 2015 3:56 a.m.
"Bend over and accept it, that way it will be quicker" can just as easily signify spanking, which does a lot of harm as well, but that is besides the point. Ripping words out of context can really do harm to their meaning (just like the word rape).
No matter the word, it is more important to understand that action is not OK. I think everyone but rapists can agree that the action is not OK.
Also, the original article could have done more to explain the 94% by just adding " 94% of rapes are not even reported, so the perps do not spend a day in jail". **You would think an article about not using stuff out of context would at least try to not use stuff out of context."
tl;dr: More of my problems are with the article itself and its tone and poor execution, rather than the topic itself.
August 20, 2015 4 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #34
but hey maybe using kill casually is a problem too, there are a lot of mass shooting going on and stuff, i usually call bullshit on desensitization to violence because i love me some violent video games but what do i know? i'm not an expert on this, maybe using rape casually doesn't contribute to rape culture. i know i sound like i'm backpedaling, but i guess I've just heard a lot of good arguments to the contrary. i still think there's some validity here though if nothing else does it really hurt to just name your deck something else? i guess you can say your freedom of speech is being violated or whatever.
using the racism example again, i'll admit i'm a little racist, i could call every black person i see nigger and no one could legally stop me, i'd probably get my ass kicked but that's besides the point, its just more socially acceptable not to. as far as anonymous on the internet goes i just don't want to be that person because most people look down on that person so if something bothers people why not just keep a lid on it i'm not saying we shouldn't talk about rape but its not like anyone is actually (openly) actually in favor of rape and if people using the word casually offends people then don't throw it around casually. my 2 cents i guess
August 20, 2015 4:01 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #35
formayor as the vet? I can tell you no one I know that had been in a combat zone has put up a sign that says "please don't do X"
FFS my first week after Iraq I was at Disney cringing at the Friday fireworks but I didn't say anything because there's not a real point.
That's the whole point, people think that vets and other people with PTSD should be handled with kid gloves but speaking from experience, it does more harm than good.
As a famous man once wrote: I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
August 20, 2015 4:04 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #36
well my friend who was raped and made multiple suicide attempts would probably disagree with that. i personally agree with you (not 100% because some people do think its worse and i feel like its kind of up to them to decide how they feel about it) i think you can always improve your situation and feel better as long as you're alive.
Boza true, i just kind of feel like its the opposite cause and effect, you're saying rapists think rape is okay but i think people who think rape is okay become rapists so we should make sure people don't think rape is okay.
i agree about the article, i was writing a paper on GMOs recently and i got so frustrated trying to analyze all the arguments it kind of gave me the pessimistic attitude that all articles on political/social issues are shit if you look long enough
August 20, 2015 4:09 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #37
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
To quote Mr.Go on the deck mentioned,
"If we ban rape I think we've definitely got to ban murder too. reading the description [of the deck] I don't find any clue that this user is mocking or making light of the victims of sexual violence or is perpetuating it's occurrence in society."
And that pretty much resumes this entire matter. This guy owns the site, whether you like it or not. We obviously can't ban murder because that would literally be banning MTG (Murder). So therefore, we're probably not banning rape anytime soon. And that should settle it.
Good day :)
August 20, 2015 4:09 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #38
Wow FAMOUSWATERMELON I can't believe you found that after this long.
August 20, 2015 4:14 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #39
Ohthenoises that quote definetly brings out my 
survival of the fittest side maybe not offending anyone is the less important part. really though i think its more important to not make the use so casual that it makes more people think rape is okay, fireworks don't make anyone think war is ok as far as i know but (according to people who look like they know more on the subject) using rape casually contributes to rape culture and makes it seem more acceptable
honestly i didn't expect to stay here and debate this long i'm just happy it looks like most of the trolls went to bed and we could have an honest debate about this
August 20, 2015 4:15 a.m.
@theorganizationmoogle. "i usually call bullshit on desensitization to violence because i love me some violent video games". You just defined defined desensitization in that sentence, but called it bullshit.
Violent video games making us think that getting a 20-kill streak is "sick (in a good way)" rather than "I just committed mass murder because I was encouraged to do so" is the exact definition of desensitization. However, do you feel more prone to grab a gun do a shoot 'em up in your neighborhood after getting a kill streak in COD? I really hope not.
Same case about rape - if I use the word casually in conversation, it does not make me or anyone else more likely to commit such an act.
tl;dr: No matter the desensitization, if you have more moral fiber than your breakfast cereal, you are not more likely to actually do the actual thing.
August 20, 2015 4:18 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #41
the argument has been made that everyone knows murder is wrong so you don't have to worry about giving anyone that illusion. also the argument has been made that just by using it in a casual manner is making light of the victims/perpetuating it's occurrence in society so i wouldn't say that's necessarily case closed. but yeah that is basically what the email i got said when i initially complained about the deck, i tried to convince them but never got a reply so at the very least this thread has helped me see both sides of the argument better
August 20, 2015 4:20 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #42
yeah i know, i was using that in the context of "i just thought of a reason why i might be wrong about all this"
but i guess what i mean is, society as a whole generally understands that murder is bad so if you have any moral fiber violent video games wont convince you to kill people at worst they'll give the already crazy people more ideas. but since allegedly rape isn't as ingrained as being bad people could be more easily influenced by being desensitized to it?
August 20, 2015 4:26 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #43
anyway my laptop just informed me its dying so i think i'm going to go actually finish the skullbriar deck i came on here to edit and go to bed.
thanks for the engaging discussion.
August 20, 2015 4:28 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #44
As someone who has witnessed my fair share (getting rocketed every night in Iraq, watching someone pop like a vampire from trublood, and having a 40mm grenade go off 8 feet away from me, etc) I can honestly say that I would be in a worse mental state if everyone had coddled me.
The thing is? The fact that I dodged shrapnel by 1 foot (and actually had it tear up my sleeping bag) didn't prevent my NCOS from basically telling me to suck it up and come to work at 8am the next day.
The point to my ramble is that sometimes, the best way to recover and feel normal is to stop complaining about it and just do what you need to do.
I'm not saying that rape victims should "suck it up buttercup" but more saying that the best way to become healthy is to just put it behind you and move on in life because there's no changing the past, you can't unpush that button, you can only deal with the result afterwards.
I have never been a strict victim of "rape" but I was in a highly abusive relationship where everything was my fault, all day, every day. I don't usually bring it up because like I said in a previous post, it's not terribly relevant.
August 20, 2015 4:35 a.m.
theorganizationmoogle says... #45
Ohthenoises that's an entirely fair point but i think that while putting it behind you and moving on is good for you in general its also important for the people that understand and care to try to make sure it happens less in the future
ok really going to bed this time
August 20, 2015 5 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #46
I'll respond to this later today when I have time to write an essay.
August 20, 2015 7:34 a.m.
I am a teacher and I suspect that my new school district has an mtg club that I plan to possibly be a part of this year.
Because of the prevalence and tolerance of very inappropriate content like this from time to to time by a limited number of users, I wouldn't recommend this site or advertise my participation here to my school community.
It has gotten somewhat better. There have been moments when I almost questioned my own participation here when stuff of this nature seemed to go beyond what I could just ignore.
I think this site has potential to be one of the best mtg resources on the web. Unfortunately, this ugliness seems to be holding it back and dragging it down somewhat.
August 20, 2015 7:58 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #48
Before people start arguing about what is morally right, I'd like them to specify which field of ethics they are referring to, and I'd like them to justify fully their stance.
August 20, 2015 8:12 a.m.
My stance is based on the school technology terms of use policy - for the most part. This is also based on school culture norms related to promoting a respectful collaborative environment. If I wouldn't support it in the classroom I wouldn't recommend it in that same setting.
August 20, 2015 8:24 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #50
See this is the problem with me jumping into a thread two pages in. My personal views have already been expressed a hundred times by a hundred other people who also hold them as their personal views, so there's no reason for me to even give them. :|
Ohthenoises says... #1
How it's written is irrelevant. The point being conveyed is "you should feel bad for naming your decks anything that I deem 'not ok'"
That in and of itself is a form of censorship. Or at least a call for it.
Again, we have had this discussion before. (Not you and I of course but the community) About this Exact deck in fact. I'm just telling people what happened last time and it seems like I painted a bullseye on my face for just telling you pepole what happened last time.
August 20, 2015 2:32 a.m.