Can Melira's Keepers/Tatterkite Persist?
Asked by deadmanwalking 13 years ago
How exactly does that work, card:Melira's Keepers and Tatterkite can't have counters placed on them, and the rules for persist are very limited. would they persist without a counter or not persist at all?
I'm pretty certain Siegfried is right. Putting the counter on isn't a requirement for persist, it's just something that happens when it returns, and so it'll come back without the counter. Pretty good, eh?
February 6, 2011 8:15 p.m.
emblasochist says... #3
blueclay is correct on both counts. Both of the creatures suggested would return to the battlefield, but without any -1/-1 counters placed on it.
February 6, 2011 10:14 p.m.
CharonSquared says... #4
Creatures with grafting are kind of similar; when they persist, the -1/-1 counter cancels out one of their +1/+1 counters. So they can persist more than once without needing to be bounced or anything.
February 7, 2011 5:35 p.m.
emblasochist says... #5
Kinda true, in that they cancel each other out, but the fact is that the creature will still have a -1/-1 counter on it and a +1/+1 counter on it. If you proliferate, it makes them either bigger, or smaller as you chose. It is also relevant for something that counts counters on a permanent, or similar shennanigans.
February 7, 2011 10:59 p.m.
Not true emblasochist! 121.2. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters literally cancel each other out.
February 7, 2011 11:06 p.m.
SinUnNombre says... #7
Which is why Kitchen Finks/Oran-Rief the Vastwood is such a great combo. Finks dies, persists, and Oran-Rief taps to remove its -1/-1 counter.
February 9, 2011 12:06 p.m.
emblasochist says... #8
Must have been a change made within the last couple years. Used to be that a creature remained having both types of counters, so it ended up having no impact on its power and toughness only. Thanks for the review of rules, Siegfried. Makes some things more interesting with proliferate.
Siegfried says... #1
Cauldron of Souls for the persist reminder text.
I believe the creatures would come back into play without a counter on them. Persist is a triggered ability, meaning that once the conditions to trigger it are met, the whole ability (or as much of it as the game will allow) goes on the stack. Any parts of it that can't activate just don't, like casting Lightning Bolt on a creature which prevents damage dealt to itself (maybe Protean Hydra )
February 6, 2011 8:09 p.m.