Does a reduction to max hand size get 'negated' by no max hand size?
Asked by Yesterday 1 month ago
I control a Locust Miser. My opponent plays a Reliquary Tower. I play a Winter, Misanthropic Guide with exactly 4 card types among cards in my graveyard.
Does the Miser's ability reduce my opponent's maximum hand size after Winter has reset it? Or does the Reliquary Tower negate the Miser's ability somwhow due to them being applied in timestamp order? I.E. Is my opponent's maximum hand size 3 or 1?
Do hand size adjusting effects (± one) and hand size setting effects (== thirteen) apply on different sublayers?
Rhadamanthus says... #2
As backup info for plakjekaas' answer, here's the specific rule covering this :
613.11. Some continuous effects affect game rules rather than objects. For example, effects may modify a player’s maximum hand size, or say that a creature must attack this turn if able. These effects are applied after all other continuous effects have been applied. Continuous effects that affect the costs of spells or abilities are applied according to the order specified in rule 601.2f. All other such effects are applied in timestamp order. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.7 and 613.8).
September 30, 2024 10:07 a.m.
Right-o! Fair enough.
In my head for some reason "you have no max hand size" == "your hand size is ∞", so it would have just been ∞-2 until Winter came along. Oh well!
October 3, 2024 4:03 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #4
And how much is ∞-2? Most mathematicians would agree it's still ∞ ;)
October 4, 2024 3:53 a.m.
Yeah, so they'd still have infinite hand size with the Reliquary Tower—but, with that sneaky li'l -2 just waiting in the wings until Winter.
plakjekaas says... Accepted answer #1
It's the timestamped order.
Locust Miser: opponent's hand size is now 5.
Then, Reliquary Tower: opponent now has no hand size.
Then, Winter: opponent's hand size is now set to 7 - 4 = 3
Now if you'd somehow kill and reanimate the Locust Miser, then your opponent's hand size would be (7-4)-2=1, with the timestamps reapplied.
Adding or subtracting from a hand size does not work with a Reliquary Tower in play, no hand size minus 2 is still no hand size, but Winter's effect overwrites the Reliquary Tower as long as you have Delirium. And Reliquary Tower overwrites it right back if it's played after Winter.
September 30, 2024 6:22 a.m.