Exactly when does a spell hit the graveyard?
Asked by MagnorCriol 14 years ago
I have two Pyromancer Ascension -related scenarios.
- I've got a Pyromancer Ascension on the field with one counter on it. I have two Burst Lightning s in hand, with none in the graveyard, and two Mountains untapped and ready. If I cast both Bursts in response to declaring attackers, will I put any counters on the Ascension? Or do I not get anything, since when I "cast" both of them there wasn't a Burst card in the grave? It boils down to a question(s) of when "cast" happens and when the card hits the graveyard.
- I've got a Pyromancer Ascension on the field with one counter on it. I have two Burst Lightning s in hand, with one already in the graveyard, and two Mountains untapped and ready. Can I cast one Burst, put a counter on the Ascension, then cast the second burst and get it copied all in response to declaring attackers?
Spells are put in the appropriate zone from the stack after they resolve.
1) The only way to get additional counters on the Pyromancer Ascension is to cast the first Burst Lightning and let it resolve, thereby going to the graveyard. Then, you interrupt the stack's resolution by casting the second Burst Lightning , triggering the Pyromancer Ascension .
2) In this instance the effects go on the stack in this order:
Burst Lightning -> Any opponent's response -> Pyromancer Ascension 's triggered effect (if you choose).
You can then let the triggered effect resolve. Once it has, you can cast the second Burst Lightning in your hand. This triggers Pyromancer Ascension 's second effect, copying Burst Lightning if you choose.
November 6, 2010 9:33 p.m.
First point: Justarsaurus, priority and resolution don't happen quite like that. In M:tG, the turn player always has priority. They can cast as many spells as they like in a row. To get them to RESOLVE, he has to pass priority. Once priority has been passed back and forth between all players with nothing new added to the stack, then spells and abilities start resolving. It is at this point of priority being passed that state-based actions are checked, the relevant one in this case being spells that have resolved being sent to the graveyard.
My interpretation: In both cases, MagnorCriol has to put one Burst into the graveyard BEFORE he casts the second one, presumably by casting it then letting it resolve, to trigger ascension. This is because Pyromancer's Ascension uses the word "cast", it uses the point of the spell being cast, NOT the spell resolving, to trigger it's abilities
November 7, 2010 2:25 a.m.
Siegfried is close, but his description of how state-based actions are checked, is unfortunately off a bit.
First, the active player doesn't always have priority. He seems to understand this though, so I assume this first point of his is just poorly worded. I do this quite a bit myself so I can hardly criticize him for that.
Second, the player with priority can indeed cast as many spells in a row without having to pass priority to another player, but every such spell they cast causes state-based actions and triggered abilities to be checked before they can cast another spell.
Third, whenever a player would receive priority state-based actions and triggered abilities are checked. This is very much unlike what is suggested by Siegfried:
Siegfried said: "Once priority has been passed back and forth between all players with nothing new added to the stack, then spells and abilities start resolving. It is at this point of priority being passed that state-based actions are checked"
Finally, onto the actual ruling:
1) Pyromancer Ascension triggers when the spells are cast (ie when you announce them but before they actually resolve), thus when a spell is cast a copy must be in the graveyard already or the ability will not trigger and thus no counter will be added. Spells on the stack but unresolved have not yet been put in the graveyard, thus no counters are given in this first scenario.
You can however cast one Burst Lightning , let it resolve first, then cast the second one in response to the first resolving and get a counter for the second one.
2) In this scenario when you cast the first Burst Lightning the Pyromancer Ascension 's first triggered ability will be added to the stack before you get priority to play the second Burst Lightning .
At this point you can indeed let that triggered ability resolve in order to add the second counter to Ascension and then cast the second burst triggering the second triggered ability on Pyromancer Ascension and getting two copies of your second burst. At that point you would have three copies of burst lightning on the stack, two from cards and of course one from the ascension's second triggered ability.
November 7, 2010 5:56 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #5
Whoops, thought I responded.
Thanks for the explanations, guys (especially that breakdown, Eyehate). The little details like when and how priority passes, and when and how some triggered abilities interact with the stack, are the nitty-gritty details that I'm still working on pegging down, since many of them are a little counter-intuitive. I'll get it eventually though. (hopefully).
Justarsaus says... #1
as soon as it resoves it hits the grave yard so for the first one the stack would look like this...
you cast Burst Lightning at your opps face... pass priority to him/her... he/she passes it back.... cast the second Burst Lightning in their... pass priority to him/her... he/she passes back... you let resolve... you opp takes 2 damage as the first Burst Lightning hits em it goes to the grave yard then they take 2 damage from the second one then it goes to the grave yard and your Pyromancer Ascension would not get any counters on it because their was not a Burst Lightning in your grave yard when you casted them from ((most likly)) you hand
for the second one if you waited for the first burst to resolve then you would be able to copy the second one
November 6, 2010 1:43 p.m.