Gains protection and abilities
Asked by mistergreen527 14 years ago
So, I was perusing the comprehensive rulebook, and it ironically caused me to have a rules question.
The ruling in question is:
602.2a: The player announces that he or she is activating the ability. If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. That ability is created on the stack as an object thats not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who activated the ability. The ability remains on the stack until its countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
The key sentence here is "it has the text of the ability that created it, and NO OTHER CHARACTERISTICS."
So, let's say I have a Prodigal Pyromancer and my opponent has an Elite Vanguard on the battlefield. I tap my Prodigal Pyromancer to use its activated ability and target the Elite Vanguard . In response to this, my opponent casts Emerge Unscathed , targeting the Elite Vanguard and choosing red.
Now, if a creature has protection from a color, it can't be targeted by a permanent that is that color. So, if it had had protection before I activated the ability, I wouldn't have been able to target it in the first place. However, Prodigal Pyromancer 's ability is already on the stack.
According to rule 602.2a, the ability that is now on the stack has no other characteristic except for the text of the ability. Color is a characteristic, but the text of the ability does not say anything about color. So, my understanding is that the ability itself is not red. This would mean that Elite Vanguard would take the one damage and die, even though it has protection from red. This just seems counter-intuitive to me. So, is this true?
Would Elite Vanguard die to Prodigal Pyromancer 's ability if it is given protection from red after Prodigal Pyromancer 's ability is placed on the stack?
mistergreen527 says... #2
You could be right. I took it to apply to all abilities. Here is the ruling before it:
602.2: To activate an ability is to put it onto the stack and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Only an objects controller (or its owner, if it doesnt have a controller) can activate its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise. Activating an ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the activation of an ability, a player is unable to comply with any of those steps, the activation is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that ability started to be activated (see rule 715, Handling Illegal Actions). Announcements and payments cant be altered after theyve been made.
Because of the sentence, "Activating an ability follows the steps listed below, in order," I believe it applies to all abilities, not just ones from hidden zones. I think the hidden zones sentence was applying only to itself and not the entire ruling, since the ruling as a whole is the first step in activating an ability.
I could be wrong though.
October 9, 2010 3:02 a.m.
602.2 Relates to spells that are activated from the 'hidden' zone. The hidden zone is basically cards with no face visible to all players.
This includes card's in hand, and cards in your library and cards that come into play face down (morph creatures)... But alas, as soon as a card is turned face up, it's then revealed and as such can be counted as a colour of the ability that it triggers.
Rule 400.2 will enlighten ya :)
400.2 Public zones are zones in which all players can see the cards faces, except for those cards that some rule or effect specifically allow to be face down. Graveyard, battlefield, stack, exile, ante, and command are public zones. Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.
Things such as the Leyline of the Void being played at the very beginning of the game would be considered under this ruling and 602.2a. Because your basically playing it from your hand, you reveal it, then it's effect resolves and you get it into play at the start of the game.
602.2b Covers all the other cards that don't fall under the hidden zone.
I hope this helps ya understand the ruling a bit better.
October 9, 2010 3:34 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #4
I'm still not so sure. You may be correct about 602.2a only addressing abilities from hidden zones, but the sentence in question can also be found here:
405.4: Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated with it. Each activated or triggered ability thats on the stack has the text of the ability that created it and no other characteristics. The controller of a spell is the person who cast it. The controller of an activated ability is the player who activated it. The controller of a triggered ability is the player who controlled the abilitys source when it triggered, unless its a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7df.
Key sentence again being: "Each activated and triggered ability that's on the stack has the text of the ability that created it and NO OTHER CHARACTERISTICS."
October 9, 2010 3:46 a.m.
602.2a is about all abilities, and just refers to stuff in hidden zones because that's the best place to put that ruling. It's just for things like Paladin of Prahv 's forecast.
The rule you are looking for is 702.14b, regarding protection: "A permanent or player with protection cant be targeted by spells with the stated quality and cant be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality."
Here here, the quality is the colour red. Note that it reads "abilities from a source with the stated quality." With activated abilities, it isn't the ability itself you look at, but where that ability came from. The pyromancer is a red source, so the Vanguard has protection and survives.
In general, if the rulebook seems to be saying the rules of the game are totally different from how you've always played, it probably isn't saying that. They wrote the rules to conform with the way people already played the game.
October 9, 2010 7:38 a.m.
Jarrod_0067 says... #6
It has protection from red, therefore cannot be dealt damage by a red source. The ability may already be on the stack, but the damage is reduced to zero.
That's just how I see it
October 9, 2010 9:15 a.m.
Technically the ability can't legally target the vanguard any more so it gets countered, but it's swings and roundabouts at that point.
October 9, 2010 9:20 a.m.
the ability still targets the vanguard, but the damage is prevented :
702.14e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented.
Source isn't a characteristic for an object - but all objects have a controller and/or a source the NO OTHER CHARACTERISTICS thing is neatly sidestepped :
109.3. An object's characteristics are name, mana cost, color, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, abilities, power, toughness, loyalty, hand modifier, and life modifier. Objects can have some or all of these characteristics. Any other information about an object isn't a characteristic. For example, characteristics don't include whether a permanent is tapped, a spell's target, an object's owner or controller, what an Aura enchants, and so on.<em>
October 9, 2010 9:48 a.m.
Read 608.2b - it gets countered. it matters, as the example in the rulebook states, when there is another effect of the ability, but here it's moot.
October 9, 2010 9:58 a.m.
I stand corrected. The rest of the stuff still counts though :)
October 9, 2010 10:14 a.m.
oh and
702.14b A permanent or player with protection can't be targeted by spells with the stated quality and can't be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality.
should finish off this question anyway.
October 9, 2010 10:24 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #12
Thanks guys, I knew it couldn't be correct, I just overlooked why.
The word "source" is definitely the key here.
October 9, 2010 10:38 a.m.
This question really shows how a community can come together and solve an answer together. :D I wish I was on at the time to help haha.
cardcoin says... #1
I think the key part to this ruling is " If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone". To me this indicates that this ruling applies to cards that use Morph, or are not in the battlefield.
This ruling I don't think will apply to the Creature who's ability has been triggered and therefore the creatures ability source is still considered to be a red source. (The creature and ability is visible and not "hidden".
I'll double check this up for ya, and come back, but my immediate reaction to your question I beleive is as above.
October 9, 2010 2:56 a.m.