How does Zareth San become unblocked?
Asked by Cinnabar64 2 weeks ago
Or, more specifically, when does Zareth San, the Trickster become unblocked when using his activated ability? It seems like it should work similarly to how ninjutsu does, but there's actually a specific rule (702.49c) that states that creatures entering with ninjutsu are "put onto the battlefield unblocked". It seems obvious that Zareth San should be considered unblocked when entering using his ability since there's no way to assign blockers to him after he enters, but it doesn't actually say that anywhere on the card. Unless I'm misunderstanding, his ability can only be activated after creatures usually become unblocked (509.1h), otherwise you wouldn't have an unblocked creature to swap out in the first place.
Side note: I've checked the Gatherer rulings for Zareth San and Thousand-Faced Shadow (which presents a similar problem), but neither of them seem to have a ruling on this issue. Makes me wonder if there's an oversight somewhere, or maybe I'm misunderstanding rule 509.1h.
Cinnabar64 says... #2
So, what's the rule that causes it to become unblocked? Is it 509.1h? My impression was that 509.1h only "happens" once during the declare blockers step, but I could be misinterpreting it. I also find it odd that ninjutsu would have its own ruling stating that the creature enters unblocked if that's supposed to be a given.
November 3, 2024 8:44 p.m.
wallisface says... #3
From reading through this entire section of rules, I think it’s more a case of “unblocked” being the default status through this phase, with the “blocked” condition only being applied when relevant. I think this is why there’s sooo much text around “blocking” but almost none around the inverse. “Unblocked” is just the absence of being “blocked”, and the default condition when being “blocked” hasn’t been met (i.e, during this phase each creature can only be one-or-the-other, not both, and not none).
November 3, 2024 9:10 p.m.
Cinnabar64 says... #4
I could see that, but then it kind of begs the question of why 509.1h has a statement for how a creature becomes "unblocked" that isn't just "if it's not blocked, then it's unblocked":
... An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature...
There doesn't seem to be anywhere else in that section that explains what constitutes an "unblocked" creature.
November 3, 2024 9:22 p.m.
wallisface says... #5
I agree it’s a strange choice of rules wording on wotc’s part.
November 3, 2024 10:30 p.m.
Cinnabar64 says... #6
I appreciate the validation, haha. I'm pretty sure we agree on what's supposed to happen (even if the rules wording is a bit iffy) so I'll go ahead and close this.
November 3, 2024 10:33 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
I agree, this appears to be an oversight where the obvious and intended result (that Zareth is "unblocked" and will eventually deal combat damage) doesn't seem to be supported by the specific letter of the rules. A clarifying rule probably needs to be inserted between 509.4 and 509.5 to cover the hole.
November 4, 2024 10:08 a.m.
If I may step in late, what's the alternative to the apparent intended outcome? What ambiguity am I missing?
What I see is:
-
Inkfathom Infiltrator and Soaring Thought-Thief attack. They are now "attacking" creatures, and their "un/blocked" status is currently undefined.
-
Blockers are assigned. No blockers are assigned to Infiltrator, while Thought-Thief is blocked.
An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. (...)
-
Infiltrator becomes an "unblocked" creature. Thought-Thief becomes a "blocked" creature.
-
Because Infiltrator is "unblocked" and "attacking", it can be used to activate Zareth San, the Trickster's ability.
-
Zareth's ability is activated, Infiltrator returns to hand, and Zareth enters as an "attacking" creature with no assigned blockers. As an attacking creature with no blockers, this is the point where it becomes an "unblocked" creature.
-
Zareth deals combat damage, and stuff happens.
(...) This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first.
- At the end of combat, creatures stopped being "blocked" or "unblocked" and return to the undefined status.
I understand the note in Ninjutsu's rules as a (technically redundant) clarification of the un/blocked rule, not an independent rule.
How else could this sequence be interpreted? At what other possible point could Zareth receive the definition of "unblocked"?
November 4, 2024 12:11 p.m.
Clarification to my bolded point: As an attacking creature with no blockers, and blockers have been fully declared, this is the point where it becomes an "unblocked" creature.
November 4, 2024 12:13 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
@legendofa: In the rules-as-written, the "blocked/unblocked" label gets applied in 509.1h, as the next to last step in the process of declaring blockers defined by 509.1, and it's not mentioned again for any of the other rules that describe the rest of the Declare Blockers step. The problem is that the things described in 509.1-509.4 happen in a specific order and Zareth San, the Trickster is entering the battlefield sometime after 509.4, so it technically wasn't around when attackers were designated as "blocked" or "unblocked", which would also mean for the rules-as-written in the Combat Damage step that it wouldn't deal combat damage. That is so unintuitive that it can't possibly be the intended result, because no one would ever play it out correctly.
November 4, 2024 1:30 p.m.
So to make sure I understand the issue, the definitions provided by 509.1h can only be applied at that moment, and can't be applied at any future point? My reading, which I'm assuming is too broad now, is that any attacking creature has to be defined as blocked or unblocked, and that 509.1h defines the procedure for the entire declare blockers step, not just that singular moment. Basically I read it as "An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature (, as long as it enters before combat damage is assigned)." For me, this interpretation is intuitive and covers both Ninjutsu and Zareth.
If that's wrong, and the labels are applied only in that instant with no forward recognition, so that Ninjutsu does need that specific rider, then yeah, I see the problem. Zareth ends up as an "undefined un/blocked" attacker, and causes a rules snarl.
November 4, 2024 2:18 p.m.
Apologies for double posting, but I thought of a different way to explain my logic.
I was reading 509.1h as explaining how the labels get applied, not as actually applying the labels. Is the reading of the word "becomes" supposed to be descriptive (if a creature ends up meeting these criteria, it becomes unblocked) or prescriptive (if a creature is meeting these criteria right now, it becomes unblocked)?
November 4, 2024 2:29 p.m.
wallisface says... #13
legendofa the rules here are just terribly written… and i’m not sure trying to force the current wording to comply with how we all naturally know the game works, is helpful. Your suggestions require a lot of guesswork and filling-in-the-gaps of the rules which ends up reading just as unintuitively as the rules in this space are written.
I think it’s ok here to say that “wotc dropped the ball with these rules”. Luckily, the interaction itself is one players all intuitively understand, so I don’t see it becoming an issue.
November 4, 2024 2:37 p.m.
wallisface I'm not suggesting anything, just learning that my interpretation of "Zareth is an attacker that didn't have blockers declared" is probably too broad, and the rules are more of a mess than I thought they were.
November 4, 2024 2:58 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
@legendofa: What you're reading is how the rules are meant to be understood and how they're meant to work, but they've unintentionally been written in a way that doesn't say what they mean. 509.1 (with its subparts) doesn't describe "the entire declare blockers step", it's specifically about the special action of declaring blockers at the beginning of the declare blockers step, and the rules seem to say this is the only time "blocked"/"unblocked" is determined for attacking creatures.
To be clear: I'm not arguing with your interpretation of what the rules are supposed to mean and I agree you're absolutely correct about what the result of this situation is supposed to be. This is a copy-editing problem rather than a weird rules quirk, and because I like thinking about the rules so much, it's just interesting to notice and consider it, especially when the rest of the document is written so tightly.
wallisface says... Accepted answer #1
A creature can only be an “unblocked creature” after blockers have been otherwise assigned. In this way, there's no chance for the creatures to become blocked after the case, as the blocking step has already taken place.
Zareth will be unblocked.
November 3, 2024 8:11 p.m.