If Glissa, the Traitor *oversized* and 3 of my opponents creatures go to the graveyard due to Black Sun's Zenith would she trigger 3 times?
Asked by cnielsen05 13 years ago
The scenario is as follows: I have Glissa, the Traitor in play, along with an arbitrary number of artifact creatures, and the opponent has 3 3/3 creatures in play.
If I cast card:Black Sun's Zenith with X=3, putting 3 -1/-1 counters on all creatures, will I get 3 triggers of Glissa, the Traitor s ability when the opponent's creatures die?
One step further, if I do get the three triggers, will any of my artifact creatures that ALSO died from the card:Black Sun's Zenith be legal targets to return to my hand when this all resolves?
I am under the impression the answers should be "yes" and "yes", but I am not sure how to back this up with the official rules.
Can anyone shed light on this?
I don't know about Glissa's effect working, but I think I know the artifacts have to be in your graveyard when an ability is triggered, so you would have to take out ones that are already there before casting the Zenith.
January 24, 2011 7:02 p.m.
cnielsen05 says... #3
I'm pretty sure that IF Glissa's effect does work, then because all of the creatures hit the graveyard at the same time, they also "see each other enter the graveyard", just like how fetching a Mountain and a Valakut at the same time with Primeval Titan allows you to get the Valakut trigger for the Mountain that entered the battlefield at the same time it did.
Once the creature has entered the graveyard, it is a valid target right? I cannot quote the proper rules for this though..
January 24, 2011 7:14 p.m.
The creatures (all of them) enter the graveyard /as/ the spell is resolving, triggering Glissa's ability. However, since abilities can't trigger while a spell is resolving, the ability waits until BSZ has finished resolving and then goes on the stack, at which point yes, you can target the original artifact creatures (now in the graveyard) with the ability.
In short: yes, yes, yes.
January 24, 2011 8:10 p.m.
cnielsen05 says... #5
Thank you sporkife, can you or some other helpful soul provide a specific rule I can quote for this?
January 24, 2011 8:19 p.m.
I need further explanation on this. I'm reading the following rule:
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, its put into its owners graveyard. Regeneration cant replace this event.
Since Glissa, the Traitor gets the counters at the same time as the rest of the creatures, they all enter the graveyard at the same time, as a state-based action. I would believe the ability would then not trigger.
It seems as though I may be incorrect, and I would like to know why.
January 24, 2011 9:11 p.m.
I get the impression that Glissa, the Traitor 's ability would not trigger since she enters the graveyard with all the creatures. It is similar to Valakut, as you mention, but Valakut is coming into play, not leaving play.
January 24, 2011 9:20 p.m.
[rulespam]
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to look back in time to determine if these abilities trigger. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you gain 1 life. Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifacts ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owners graveyard at the same time as the creatures.
[/rulespam]
January 24, 2011 9:29 p.m.
cnielsen05 says... #9
If the fact it is state-based is significant, then perhaps this would work with Consume the Meek , but not card:Black Sun's Zenith?
January 24, 2011 9:29 p.m.
While it's not actually LKI, if you think of it as if it were LKI then you'll end up getting it right. (almost all the time) (I think)
cnielsen05 says... #1
In case it was not clear, please note that the card:Black Sun's Zenith is also killing Glissa herself.
January 24, 2011 7 p.m.