Splash Lasher token has reminder text about its mana cost?
Asked by TypicalTimmy 5 days ago
The card Splash Lasher has a token that literally says it has a mana cost of in reminder text?
I thought tokens have no mana cost as they aren't cast, but created?
Is this some new rules update from Bloomburrow?
THe same thing happens with the spellgorger weird from Ral and the Implicit Maze
December 12, 2024 9:49 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
This isn't a change in the rules. Mana cost is one of the copiable values that get considered by a copy effect, so a token copy of something will have the same mana cost as the original.
A token has the characteristics specifically given to it by the effect that creates it. "Normal" token-creating effects will define the type, color, P/T (if it's a creature), subtypes, name (if different from subtypes), any abilities and anything else you need to know. The design standard for these kinds of effects is that they don't define a mana cost for the tokens. However, effects that create token copies use the game's copy rules to determine the token's characteristics, which does include mana cost, and will only specifically call out any characteristics that aren't being copied (e.g. Offspring defines a different P/T for the token).
In the case of the Spellgorger Weird token from Ral and the Implicit Maze, you're being instructed to create a copy of a specific existing Magic card and the reminder text is giving you all the important information about that in case you aren't able to look it up otherwise.
December 13, 2024 10:37 a.m.
The two previous keywords that made token copies (Embalm and Eternalize) had special rules to remove the mana cost from the token, you can see it spelled out in rules text on Vizier of Many Faces as it's clone effect would normally strip the Embalm changes if they weren't included. This was likely done because of the understanding that "tokens don't have mana cost" as a rule, despite exceptions (such as Cackling Counterpart) already existing at the time. Wizards changed their approach with the Offspring mechanic allowing it to maintain mana cost. This change may have been related to Modern Horizons III introducing the ability to make tokens of cards (such as Ral and the Implicit Maze) which already have costs, but also could have been because the ability to create copies of Permanent Spells (which resolve as tokens with mana cost) was added to the game since the previous keywords were made.
December 13, 2024 3:57 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #5
So, followup question.
What becomes the default now?
Do tokens inherently now have a mana cost of unless otherwise stated?
In a pedantic sense, a mana cost of is different from no value. One could make the argument that is a numerical value representing the lack of information contained within a set.
- If I have 5 apples and 6 oranges, how many bananas do I have? 0. I have no bananas contained within my set of fruit.
Then again, saying it has no cost means that anything which would impact -costs won't be seen. As an example, Culling Ritual hits everything with mana value 2 or less. If some tokens now have values and some do not, how are the ones inherently created without it handle this? Do the tokens created with Krenko, Mob Boss die to it?
Because now you potentially open up this can of worms;
- Your tokens die, too.
- No, they don't.
- Mana value 2 or less. Your tokens have .
- No, they don't have a mana value.
- Right, that's zero. Less than one.
- No, it's undefined. There isn't one.
- But they are zero!
- Show me where it says zero on the card!
- THEY ARE ZERO
- They don't list themselves as enchantments, do they? Because THEY AREN'T ENCHANTMENTS!
- We aren't talking about Enchantments!
- Exactly! We are dealing with part of an identity. My tokens HAVE NO MANA VALUE AS THEIR IDENTITY
Because, realistically speaking...
Undefined =/= Zero
They are not synonymous with each other...
December 13, 2024 4:11 p.m. Edited.
Tokens do not have a mana cost unless the effect creating them assigns a mana cost (such as by making it a copy of an object with a mana cost). Any object without a mana cost (including lands and cards like Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar) has a mana value of 0. You'll notice Culling Ritual doesn't say anything about the mana cost of permanents, rather the mana value. A mana cost of is different from not having a mana cost, but both give a mana value of 0. Just like a mana cost of is different from a mana cost of , but both would give a mana value of 1. This is also why Culling Ritual specifies nonland, because otherwise it would destroy lands despite not having a mana cost, because the mana value is 0.
202.3a The mana value of an object with no mana cost is 0, unless that object is the back face of a transforming double-faced permanent or is a melded permanent.
Regarding nothing not being a mana cost, that is correct. Memnite shares a mana cost with Ornithopter, but Dryad Arbor does not share a mana cost with Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar since neither of them have one. I think the only cards that care about this difference are Killer Cosplay and Richard Garfield, Ph.D., neither of which are black boarder legal.
December 13, 2024 6:13 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
The "default" would be what you're used to, that tokens created by a normal token-making effect don't have a mana cost and therefore have a mana value - previously called "converted mana cost" - of zero. Tokens created by copy effects are an exception to that "default" because copy effects use special rules (and apparently Embalm uses even more special rules for whatever reason).
TypicalTimmy says... #1
December 12, 2024 9:47 p.m.