Valkyrie's Call and Zur, Eternal Schemer does it make Valkyrie's Call] an angel?
Asked by bhst5019 1 week ago
Valkyrie's Call is out in play. I make it a creature with Zur, Eternal Schemer . From my knowlege, I know it comes back. However, my question is does it come back as an angel without being a creature?
So wait, it gains the type later when I turn it into a creature? Interesting. Seems like since it cannot have the type to begin being an enchantment with it would negate this.
December 6, 2024 1:09 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
The type-changing effect created by Call when it brings itself back to the battlefield still exists, it just doesn't have any effect on the object's characteristics while it's not a creature. If you use another type-changing effect to turn it into a creature, you have two continuous effects applying in the same layer (specifically, the layer for type-changing effects) and applying one of them (Zur) would change the result of the other (Call) and what it would apply to. That means the Call type-changing effect is dependent on the Zur type-changing effect, so the Zur effect needs to be applied first. That turns the object into a creature, which means it gets turned into an angel by the Call effect.
December 6, 2024 1:48 p.m.
The_True_Stav says... #4
I'm not sure that Rhadamanthus is fully correct here.
Valkyrie's call will bring itself back if you animated it with Zur, however since it comes back just as an enchantment and not a creature, it can't gain the "Angel" creature type. From the comp rules:
205.3d An object can’t gain a subtype that doesn’t correspond to one of that object’s types.
It still gets the +1/+1 counter and flying I believe, but it doesn't get the Angel subtype at all. This means that even if you animate it later on, it still won't be an Angel and can effectively come back as many times as you want. This also applies to any other non-creature enchantments you animate with Zur.
December 16, 2024 11:09 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
My reasoning is that the two effects form a dependency with each other, partly because of rule 205.3d. The two type-changing effects - Zur's effect that adds the creature type and Call's effect that adds the Angel subtype - apply in the same layer (Layer 4) and applying one of them (Zur) would change what the other (Call) applies to or what it does to any of the things it applies to. This means Call's effect is dependent on Zur's effect and Zur's effect needs to be applied first to determine the object's final characteristics even though Call has an earlier timestamp.
613.8. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
613.8c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
It won't be an Angel. A card can only have subtypes that go with the types it has. Angel is only a subtype for the Creature and Kindred (formerly "Tribal") card types. In this example Valkyrie's Call is just an Enchantment when it comes back, so it can't have the Angel subtype.
If Zur turns Call into a Creature again, it will be an Angel. This is because the two type-changing effects form a dependency, since applying Zur's effect would change what the Call's effect does to itself. So the type-changing part of Call's effect is dependent on Zur's effect, meaning Zur's effect is applied first instead of using timestamp order.
December 5, 2024 11:11 a.m.