What happens if you turn a sorcery into an artefact?
Asked by Yesterday 1 month ago
Arena-specific question. I don't think I have the cards to test it RN.
Reezug, the Bonecobbler can turn both sides of a MDFC creature into an artefact. I've done this before with a Sheoldred Flip which I paid to flip over into an artefact that didn't do anything. I've also seen it happen to a Grist, Voracious Larva Flip which transformed into an artefact with loyalty abilities.
What happens if you turn a Blex, Vexing Pest Flip into an artefact card and then cast Search for Blex Flip?
Gidgetimer says... #2
I agree that the resolving Search for Blex Flip will do nothing. I am, however; confused by the assertation that the spell will go to the graveyard. Reezug, the Bonecobbler doesn't say "in addition to its other types" and so the Search for Blex Flip will no longer be a sorcery. The bit about "Instant and sorcery cards can’t enter the battlefield" in 110.4 and 712.13a will not apply since it is not an instant or sorcery.
October 7, 2024 4:39 p.m.
I think the key here is that the back side of Blex, Vexing Pest Flip is not a permanent card. In the final example, Invasion of Kylem Flip is entering as a copy of a creature. Because of how copy effects work, Valor's Reach Tag Team Flip is also a copy of Bird Admirer Flip, so it's a creature entering the battlefield. The rule still explicitly prevents it from entering, even though it's type is changed. Search for Blex Flip is perpetually an artifact instead of a sorcery, but it's still on some level a sorcery card for the sake of being able to enter the battlefield.
October 8, 2024 3:16 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
@Gidgetimer: The reason 712.13a is worded the way it is, saying "If the back face of the card that represents that spell is an instant or sorcery card...", is to only consider the original physical object rather than its current characteristics. Like Neotrup said, the object in the contrived example from the CR is not a Sorcery, just an Artifact Creature, but the game doesn't want to allow any situation where an Instant or Sorcery card ends up entering the battlefield.
October 8, 2024 11:31 a.m.
The answers and debate here got me interested enough to spend some wildcards to test it out.
I don't like the Arena-specific keywords. As opposed to acorn stuff, where there's probably a pretty close answer that we can figure out and roll with it; with the Arena ones, they feel like they should have comprehensive rules but just don't, and with these niche scenarios you can't be sure whether you should trust the game is handling it correctly or if they just didn't care to implement it properly.
Anyway, all that to say the answer doesn't make sense and is unsatisfying. As Gidge said, Reezug doesn't say "in addition" and just changes the card directly into an artifact. Except for sorceries (and presumably instants), apparently. Search for Blex became a sorcery artifact card that behaved exactly like a sorcery, including binning itself after resolution.
I'll leave the question up for a bit if ye want to discuss it further, and so that when I get the time I can test that I can't have it otherwise enter the battlefield.
October 8, 2024 10:34 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
Thanks for testing, that's great intel. The result you saw tells me either Reezug's effect isn't coded to do exactly what the text says (the result even contradicts the reminder text) or the MDFC code isn't written in a way that acts correctly under this corner case. If I had to guess I'd guess it was an MDFC code issue since that seems like it'd be way more difficult to implement 100% correctly even after extensive testing. Heck, maybe they even gave it this behavior on purpose to avoid potential problems with a spell getting permanently stuck on the stack if the game engine didn't handle the rules interactions exactly right.
I remember when Arena-only cards were first announced my friends and I joked about Hearthstone cards being added to Magic, but honestly this feels like a very Hearthstone result. The cards aren't exactly clear and the rules are murky enough that you just have to do the interaction in-game to find out what happens and it's not always what you expect, or might even work differently from something you would expect it to mirror in behavior.
October 9, 2024 9:10 a.m.
No worries! And yeah, it kinda does? I haven't played Hearthstone in a while. Maybe that comparisin would upset a pro Hearthstone judge, which I might be concerned about if they hung out here, or existed.
I'm in a location RN where I'm not getting a lot of free time, so I think I'll close this thread when I'm properly online next in a couple days. But I'll update it when I test stuff out properly, realistically in maybe a week from now.
Rhadamanthus says... #1
The rules covering situations similar to this seem to indicate Search for Blex Flip will do nothing as it resolves and will go back to the graveyard, but the problem is that because this specific interaction is only possible in Arena play, the Comprehensive Rules don't seem to have been updated with something that makes the results explicitly clear. To know for sure about how it works in Arena, you might have to throw together a deck and run games against a bot until you can make it happen.
For the "do nothing" reasoning: The rules for how to resolve a permanent spell in 608.3 don't have a step similar to anything in 608.2 (the rules for instants, sorceries and abilities) that would actually process the rules text of the spell.
For going back to the graveyard: I'm relying on the combination of the following rules. The last one is actually about transforming DFCs, not modal DFCs, but I'm taking it as an example about what's intended to happen with a modal DFC in this situation.
110.4. There are six permanent types: artifact, battle, creature, enchantment, land, and planeswalker. Instant and sorcery cards can’t enter the battlefield and thus can’t be permanents. Some kindred cards can enter the battlefield and some can’t, depending on their other card types. See section 3, “Card Types.”
110.4a The term “permanent card” is used to refer to a card that could be put onto the battlefield. Specifically, it means an artifact, battle, creature, enchantment, land, or planeswalker card.
608.3e If a permanent spell resolves but its controller can’t put it onto the battlefield, that player puts it into its owner’s graveyard.
Example: Worms of the Earth has the ability “Lands can’t enter the battlefield.” Clone says “You may have Clone enter as a copy of any creature on the battlefield.” If a player casts Clone and chooses to copy Dryad Arbor (a land creature) while Worms of the Earth is on the battlefield, Clone can’t enter the battlefield from the stack. It’s put into its owner’s graveyard.
712.13. By default, a resolving double-faced spell that becomes a permanent is put onto the battlefield with the same face up that was face up on the stack.
712.13a Some abilities may cause a transforming double-faced spell with its front face up on the stack to enter the battlefield transformed or converted. If the back face of the card that represents that spell is an instant or sorcery card, or that spell is a copy of a double-faced card created with an instant or sorcery back face, it doesn’t enter the battlefield, and is instead put into its owner’s graveyard.
Example: A player controls both Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines, the combined effects of which make all permanents artifact creatures in addition to their other types. They also control a Clone on the battlefield that is a copy of Bird Admirer, a creature with daybound. It is currently night, but that permanent can’t transform because it isn’t represented by a double-faced card. Its controller casts Mystic Reflection targeting it, then casts Invasion of Kylem, a Siege battle whose back face is a sorcery. Because Invasion of Kylem is entering the battlefield as a creature, Mystic Reflection’s replacement effect applies to it and it tries to enter the battlefield as a copy of Bird Admirer. Since it is night, the daybound ability would normally cause it to enter with its back face up. However, since its back face is a sorcery, it is instead put into its owner’s graveyard.
October 7, 2024 12:12 p.m.