sergiodelrio on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
Ok, I concede my argument at this point, although an official text on how MAY abilities work would really convince me that I am wrong here and has not been provided yet.
Rhadamanthus on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
The idea that "may" abilities can be ignored is mostly something for tournament play. It's an official judging policy that simplifies how problems are resolved. If a player doesn't take an optional action and the game continues on then it's just assumed the player chose not to do it, rather than having to stop and treat the miss as some kind of Game Rule Violation or Game Play Error.
I agree it's not exactly clear whether 729.3 regarding fragmented loops is strictly applicable here but you don't really need it. By my interpretation, everything important is laid out in 729.2 regarding the formal procedure for taking a shortcut. The reason I didn't quote it above was because it's a lot of text and my post was already long, but here it is for reference:
729.2. Taking a shortcut follows the following procedure.
729.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.
Example: A player controls a creature enchanted by Presence of Gond, which grants the creature the ability “{T}: Create a 1/1 green Elf Warrior creature token,” and another player controls Intruder Alarm, which reads, in part, “Whenever a creature enters, untap all creatures.” When the player has priority, they may suggest “I’ll create a million tokens,” indicating the sequence of activating the creature’s ability, all players passing priority, letting the creature’s ability resolve and create a token (which causes Intruder Alarm’s ability to trigger), Intruder Alarm’s controller putting that triggered ability on the stack, all players passing priority, Intruder Alarm’s triggered ability resolving, all players passing priority until the player proposing the shortcut has priority, and repeating that sequence 999,999 more times, ending just after the last token-creating ability resolves.
729.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where they will make a game choice that’s different than what’s been proposed. (The player doesn’t need to specify at this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the proposed sequence.
Example: The active player draws a card during her draw step, then says, “Go.” The nonactive player is holding Into the Fray (an instant that says “Target creature attacks this turn if able”) and says, “I’d like to cast a spell during your beginning of combat step.” The current proposed shortcut is that all players pass priority at all opportunities during the turn until the nonactive player has priority during the beginning of combat step.
729.2c Once the last player has either accepted or shortened the shortcut proposal, the shortcut is taken. The game advances to the last proposed ending point, with all game choices contained in the shortcut proposal having been taken. If the shortcut was shortened from the original proposal, the player who now has priority must make a different game choice than what was originally proposed for that player.
Mohamedpe on Orzhov Tokens
1 week ago
Taida, thanks for the tips, I'm going to test some of these cards you mentioned!
chaosshadow589 on The Warrior’s Blade- Najeela CEDH
1 week ago
I have found most cantrips like gitaxian probe don't really get me any further ahead of hoping that I can identify an opponent's counterspell. In 5 color with access to every single card in the game the card quality has to be absolutely near perfect to justify the slot. For that reason I need spells that get me more cards than trading 1 for 1 and /or push my game plan along. Thanks for checking out the deck!
sergiodelrio on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
Ok, one last thing and sorry for triple posting:
How many times do new players forget to fetch a land when something like Path to Exile hits their creature?
No one gets to pressure them to make a choice. They simply ignored it/forgot about it and the game is 100% cool with that - no amount of judge calls will revert the game state once you "forgot".
Imho, this is a good example of how the spirit of the game wants to handle MAY abilities. You can literally do nothing / ignore it completely / forget about it and the game moves on without a problem.
sergiodelrio on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
EDIT: All I found was a discussion from 2007 (sigh) where poeple, including a lvl 3 judge talk about may abilities. They conclude that "May abilities do not happen if you do not declare them"
Sadly, this is the best I got
EchoSpice on Group hug but snake, so …
1 week ago
capwner Mana Echoes is a great suggestion!! Definitely will be adding that, as for decking myself i havent had any problems so far, but Endurance seems like a safe bet! And yeah ive definitely thought about Purphoros, God of the Forge as well, but i think my pod might kill me IRL if he hits the board XD Thanks for the comment! :D
sergiodelrio on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
capwner Arguably, it doesn't, as it is a MAY ability.
I understand where you're coming from. We would need definitive rules to understand how exactly the game handles "MAY" abilities.
Arguably, and this is how I interpret it, a may ability can entirely be ignored by the player(s) it is affecting. There is no choice against it. This is how it is different from a "CHOOSE" ability.
If Obeka's ability was somehow worded "TAP: target player who's turn it is chooses one " 1) end the turn 2) don't end the turn" I'd say this works and you're right.
My interpretation allows MAY abilities to be ignored entirely as they are an implicit choice, not an explicit choice. If MAY abilities worked the way you and others suggest, then, in a multiplayer game, every player would be taking action and be involved in every step of the game, thus, also the loop we're talking about, since they have to "let this resolve without me taking action and pass priority". But this is all the AP does in the event they choose to not act on the MAY ability.
Unfortunately, MAY abilities are not covered explicitly in the CR or at least not in a way that would resolve our question.
I really think we should get definitive supreme court ruling from the rules manager on this one tbh.
The real question remains imho, does "resolves, pass priority" count as taking active action the way required by the rules for this to "work" in a way intended by OP.
Also, imho, in the whole loop process, when the Obeka player demonstrates it, they are the only ones who don't pass priority on an empty stack, thus preventing the game from moving forward... it's not like stuff is triggering automatically... they are activating it over and over.
Obeka: "Do the loop 1000 times"
AP: "resolves, pass priority 1000 times"
Obeka: "One more time"
I understand what ya'll mean but 1) I'm not convinced and 2) this interpretation seems like it is not in the spirit of the game, which certainly does not mean I'm right and you're wrong.
capwner on Group hug but snake, so …
1 week ago
Mana Echoes can make a ton of mana and deck everyone if you chain Prosperity effects. And maybe consider Elfhame Sanctuary or a Words card like Words of Wind to protect yourself from decking. Endurance also works here to a lesser extent
capwner on Group hug but snake, so …
1 week ago
Looks like a sweet list, right mix of power and fun. Xyris is super strong. I feel like Battle Hymn is underplayed and goes crazy in here. Artifact Mutation is a personal fav of mine as well, good picks. I like the omission of Narset, seems like a conscious choice to keep the deck fair and fun. I don't have too many recs, stuff that comes to mind would be Earthcraft but it's pretty expensive. And Purph but I'm sure you've thought about him. +1
capwner on Your Sass Is Grass! (Sasaya …
1 week ago
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think Verdant is too expensive for a setup card, Hart works because you can play it on turn 3 crack on 4. Journey of Discovery is very playable and used to be in the deck. I think You Happen on a Glade is better though, so that took its spot. Flare is a decent card but it is essentially another Cultivate. You can see I really prioritize cards that get me more than 1 land to hand and particularly at instant speed, for reasons I discuss in the primer, that's really what the deck needs to do its thing.
capwner on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
sergiodelrio The ability instructs the active player to make a choice which impacts the game state. If you want to prove your stance, you need to back up the claim that this choice doesn't constitute an action. Can you do that?
SufferFromEDHD on Your Sass Is Grass! (Sasaya …
1 week ago
Yavimaya Elder is OG. Part of the reason I even mentioned Pattern of Rebirth.
Verdant Confluence same cost as Burnished Hart but more value. You run 3 creatures that benefit from counters.
Journey of Discovery same cost and slightly better value than Burnished Heart.
Flare of Cultivation seems good.
sergiodelrio on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
Obeka player: 'put my may ability on the stack'
AP: 'resolves'
Please explain how the AP is taking action, if it's put this way.
capwner on Literally just a list of …
1 week ago
Love the concept and simplicity of the deck, I always like when a deckbuilding choice gets you to run a whole ton of old jank niche cards! The first thing I thought of is maybe add Toski, Bearer of Secrets as an honorary unblockable (total jank card right?). And maybe a bit of protection like March of Swirling Mist or Heroic Intervention, protection never goes amiss in creature decks. Reliquary Tower is probably a good add as well if you are stacking multiples of these draw on damage effects.
K4nkato on Tinkerbell says “No”
1 week ago
Weekly Results:
Affinity: ✅✅
Gruul Tremors: ✅✅
Mono Black Rat Sack: ❌❌
I lost to Pauperganda in the finals lol
capwner on Your Sass Is Grass! (Sasaya …
1 week ago
SufferFromEDHD Hmmm, how do I defend my Burnished Hart... I guess Skyshroud Claim is the closest competitor and that card is quite good because it acts like a ritual after flipping Sasaya. I think my reasoning with Burnished was that it feeds clamp and enables Survival of the Fittest. You make a good point though, the card has downsides and may be worth reconsideration. Masticore is a nice rec but I think not as efficient as O-stone for removal or Squall Line for burn. I think the other cards don't really fit the deck's gameplan quite as well as the creature tutors and tech land I have included. Though I do love Dust Bowl. Can't run em all!
I think Natural Order is more suited to a creature/stompy build, the only time I want to get my bombs out is when I'm already going off, and at that point the mana discount (primary advantage of NO) doesn't matter to me because I am already making gobs of mana. Before then I'm most likely to want to tutor for Yavimaya Elder, in which case NO is overcosted.
SufferFromEDHD on Your Sass Is Grass! (Sasaya …
1 week ago
Kamigawa jank unite!!!
I like your idea, I like your direction and I like your card choices. Only one cards stand out as meh: Burnished Hart you are in green... Utilize one of the many land tutor options under 6.
I see the Dryad Arbor and the Green Sun's Zenith... Where's the Natural Order?
On a similar note Pattern of Rebirth is excellent synergy with the sacrifice ramp creatures.
Masticore machine gun in a color that doesn't kill creatures
Dust Bowl is always useful in a deck full of basic lands.
SufferFromEDHD on Shisato! Whispering! Hunter!
1 week ago
Green Slime is Teferi's Response! Great Survival of the Fittest silver bullet.
I was surprised that this snake jank ended up having some bite. Catches opponents by surprise.
capwner on Shisato! Whispering! Hunter!
1 week ago
Cloister + Brooch is pretty cheeky, though losing your entire hand to a Green Slime would suck. +1 for Kamigawa snake jank :)
capwner on "Commonly Mispronounced" Tribal
1 week ago
You should rule 0 to run a Zzzyxas's Abyss in here :)
bankrupt_on_selling on Lathril's Dark Elfball
1 week ago
Skyshroud Poacher seems really good. Sylvan Library is really good. Nurturing Peatland seems worthy.
capwner on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
Seems like the crux of the matter is whether or not the opponent is 'involved' in the loop. The opponent is offered a choice that affects the game state, so I would assume the answer is yes. But other folks have made a good point that the Obeka choice may not constitute an 'action.' And 729.3 does say 'action.'
"Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times."
I can't actually find a hard definition for 'action' in the CR. Google's AI says:
'In Magic: The Gathering, "taking an action" refers to performing any gameplay activity that actively affects the game state'
Which would suggest that the Obeka loop does involve the AP taking actions. But I can't find anything in the CR to back this up, 'game state' is referenced 19 times but none of these contribute to defining 'action.' Shortcut rules reference a 'game choice' which IS defined as 'either taking an action or passing priority.' Am I missing something obvious?
Would be interested to hear more judges/rules experts weigh in. Funnily enough I previously submitted this interaction to Judge Dave of JudgingFTW, as I've wanted to hear him talk about fragmented loops for a while now, though he hasn't put anything out on them as of yet.
SufferFromEDHD on Salt Devastation
1 week ago
Burning Sands > Rite of a Flame
Or replace with a niche rock like Cursed Mirror or Machine God's Effigy
Lightning Greaves > Whispersilk Cloak
Catastrophe swiss army knife. Might be better than Jokulhaups as you don't want to blow up your rocks.
You are running the three Surveil lands and Crucible but other than that there's no graveyard theme. My suggestion: Forbid > Counterspell
DrummerGarrett on Gürt's Krenko Commander
1 week ago
Potentially replace Sulfuric Vortex with Skirk Prospector
DrummerGarrett on READY RED/GREEN - Creatures and …
1 week ago
This deck currently sucks ass. Played 3 games with it this November and i've gotten mana screwed and had no way to deal with basic flying. Fix this shit.
- Needs more flying
- Needs more low cost creatures (ideally multi-colored)
- Make it easier to cast things and get ahead of the opponent.
Get rid of the pain lands, in my last game, I drew both of them and they just hurt to do basic shit... Kird Ape doesn't gain any bonus from a pain land. JUST NEED MORE TO DO, MAKE IT FUN.
Either make it better or scrap/gut it.
Rhadamanthus on The Rules Say It Works
1 week ago
All of CR Section 729 (it looks like the description of this deck was originally written before some rules changes that required renumbering) is about "Taking Shortcuts", including 729.3 regarding fragmented loops. 729.3 essentially requires players to establish a shortcut if multiple people get involved in a loop situation that no one has proposed a shortcut for otherwise.
This works, on the basis of the basic shortcut and loop rules in 729.1 and 729.2 plus the fragmented loop rule in 729.3 as additional justification. Based on the procedure given in 729.2:
- The Obeka player can propose: "I'll activate Obeka and then do this other stuff to untap her and everything else. You choose not to end your turn. We do this 10 more times and on the last iteration you choose to end your turn"
- The other player can either accept that series of events or shorten it by picking a place where they will make a different choice, perhaps responding somewhere with removal/countermagic or even choosing to end the turn on an earlier iteration if they really want to
- The shortcut is established and the game proceeds to the end state, either the original one if there were no proposed changes or the modified end state if there was a proposed change
The specific example shared earlier from the MTR for "TE: Slow Play" covers a situation where a player continues to loop something but can't (or won't) provide a proper shortcut with a defined stopping point. For example, insisting on manually performing 1000 iterations of a Krenko / Intruder Alarm loop and refusing proposals to shortcut would be Slow Play since there's no real reason to do that besides trying to run out the clock.
RG Dragons
by Dezan
Argy on Boros Puppies
1 week ago
Battlefield Forge has already been suggested, and discussed.
I prefer not to use it in Casual settings.
K4nkato on Worship at Krark's Altar
1 week ago
Weekly Results:
Bye:➖
Grixis Affinity:✅✅
Walls Combo:❌✅✅
Solid night overall. Thinking about cutting scattershot from the list for something completely different.
Kazeth on The Fist of Nature
1 week ago
Any thoughts of adding Ashroot Animist Quilled Greatwurm Ojer Kaslem, Deepest Growth Flip Bloodthirster?
bankrupt_on_selling on Saskia the Unyielding Suicide -- …
1 week ago
Please update this deck and make it not budget for decklist sake!
SufferFromEDHD on Salt Devastation
1 week ago
Great points. I like Michiko too but Burning Sands belongs in this. Dissipation Field, Ghostly Prison and Propaganda are good but redundant. Consolidate that into something bigger like Sphere of Safety.
I also like Aurelia but this is not a creature aggro list. Strionic Resonator would accomplish what you want more efficiently.
Running Dust Bowl... Where's the Flagstones of Trokair?